45 Comments Add your own

• 1. Corey  |  October 6th, 2007 at 12:54 pm

  I am sorry to say that in many cases this is true. I have lived and worked in China for several years and can speak Chinese quite well. It is much more common for people in China to think it is perfectly normal to cheat a business partner. Sometimes people like to always assume that we as Westerners are ignorant of other cultures. I’ve made plenty of money in China but also had a business partner cheat me on a bad shipment, then sell the product we developed together to my competitors. They proposed ridiculously unfair terms leaving me no choice but to walk away in spite of the losses. Of course we can help prevent problems by learning the culture and language better, but it is still true that ethical standards are higher in some countries than others.

• 2. Chris Carr  |  October 8th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

  Hi Corey.

  Thanks for checking in.

  I never know what to make of these types of conclusions. For example, have you never been cheated by a Westerner? Maybe not. I have. Many times. Yet I still don’t know that one can draw a conclusion that “Westerners lie, cheat and steal” ay more than another group of people.

  You may be right. But you may be wrong.

  I have never found convincing data on this issue one way or the other. I have not even found a decent academic study where people even agree on the definition of “cheating”. For example, many firms in the West make a profit that may make one’s eyes pop out. Does that mean they are “cheaters”? Depends on who you ask and what axe they may have to grind.

• 3. Corey  |  October 13th, 2007 at 9:48 am

  Part of it is poverty, the Chinese feel that if they don’t rush to grab every opportunity they’ll be left behind. You see this with cutting in line, driving habits, and in many other ways.

  I talked to quite a few Chinese, and most tended to think it was perfectly normal to not pay a client for a bad container shipment of products. You can argue that some of our companies exhibit bad behavior, but on the whole, I find Western business practices to be more honest. Please keep in mind this is from someone who had been very supportive, in fact in many cases I have spoken in support of China back home.

  I think that in your position you have to play the academic role and say it is all relative. However for people on the ground doing business, it is very important not to be overly naive as some Westerners are who go to China. Investigate potential partners carefully and stand your ground. Getting upset is counter-productive and patience is very helpful.

• 4. Chris Carr  |  October 13th, 2007 at 8:08 pm

  Hi Corey.

  Thanks for checking back in.

  I can’t refute your experience with both cultures.

  Mine has just been different.

  I am not playing the be a balanced academic card. In my own life and experience I have met and know a number of incredible and honest people in China and the US. I have also met and know a number of cheaters in China and the US. This includes my role and work as a practicing attorney in the trenches and on the ground; not the ivory towers of the university setting

  I would have to see an agreed upon definition of cheating, and then, meaningful data to support the hypothesis that one group of people cheat more than the other.

  Until then, I make and draw no conclusion either way; and I continue to resist the temptation and natural urge to only focus on data points that confirm my own biases and/or former experiences in life.

  I agree that patience is a good thing and an under utilized tool.

• 5. james  |  October 15th, 2007 at 6:28 am

  I am an American who has conducted business in China for the past 7 years and own 2 companies inside China.

  You are doing your students a big disfavor buy not adequately preparing them for the frequency, magnitude & sophistication of cheating in this country.

  The fact is cheating is rampant in China. It is ingrained in their culture and your students will face it on a daily basis. And they need to be very well prepared. Trust no one. Always get a second opinion; possibly 2 or 3. Have several back up plans. Plan for failure. Be preventative. Conduct any and or all business / relationships 100% on your terms.

  Example: student lies to teacher and gets away with it. Chinese father says, “great job son; your so great becuase you outsmarted the teacher; your going to be a big boss someday.”

  American father says, “son you need to tell the teacher you lied and apologize.”

  In addition to cheating each other. Chinese people love cheating foreigners. Business in China is an adverserial relationship at best. And it is hostile. Chinese supplier goal is to get as much as the can from the buyer using all means necessary including cheating and lying. This is good Chinese business from the Chinese perspective. Contracts are broken routinely and during production process corners are cut effecting quality. Common scheme; establish trust and slowly start the cheating games.

  I personally have had factory owners, government officials, bank presidents and countless other Chinese people lie right to me face in person on so many occasions it is ridiculous. Just lying and smiling away. And no this is not face. Becuase face is given as a sign of respect.

  Why?

  I don’t know probably becuase the whole system is built on lies. Also, Chinese seem to feel that they are superior to everyone and that they must do things the Chinese way.

  Well the Chinese way is a sure way to be cheated fast. And having considerable experience in China; I sincerely hope that you do your best to prepare students about lying, cheating & greed of China.

• 6. Chris Carr  |  October 15th, 2007 at 6:55 am

  James,

  Thanks for checking in.

  We try not to tell graduate students what they need to believe about the Chinese or other. If you came on our trip, you would see that they are exposed to the many different facets and people of China, including the bogeyman you allude to, and they are big boys and girls and they then decide for themselves. Same re the videos and readings they are exposed to before we leave on the trip. Let’s you and me get out of the way and let them learn as adults should.

  The examples you cite in China I have also seen, over and over, here in the US. I know some American fathers who show their sons/daughters how to cheat by what they say and do. I know some American mothers who do the same darn thing. I have seen American kids teach each other how to cheat.

  I repeat what I earlier noted …. please provide me with a definition of cheating we can all reasonably agree on (e.g., if/when one pushes the limits on their tax return, is that ‘cheating’?; when one charges more to one customer versus another is that unethical or ‘cheating’?, etc.), and provide me with actual data with a decent sample size to support said definition and test a cheating hypothesis; sample sizes of two or three person’s or firm’s anecdotal life experience makes for an interesting war story to tell to a class of students, but not much more than that.

  For every expat in China or American in the US doing business in China that I have met over the years who say the Chinese are bad, I have met an equal number that say the opposite. So go figure.

  I have also met a number of such business people that say and believe if one is cheated in China (or anywhere in the world), they have only themselves to blame because chances are they did little, if any, due diligence and their expectations were far out of whack with reality for that market.

  And here is the rub that I can never quite figure out with the “I just know for a fact that Chinese are bigger cheaters than the rest of the world” crowd …

  A number of them do business in China and make good money. And/or, they buy Chinese made goods because they are addicted to the cheap price. I.e., they are doing business with these alleged bad boys and/or buy their product, so how is it they can so cleanly separate ‘us’ from ‘them’?

  I also have noticed that such folks rarely put their names on the blog comments they make. I have learned over the years not to put much stock in a statement that a person makes from the hidden shadows. The way we find ‘truth’ is on such matters is to shed full and complete sunlight on them, and that includes statements, who makes them, and the context in which they make them.

  For example, the Wall Street Journal, and other decent papers, never publish an op-ed piece anonymously.

  I see no reason why blog land should be any different, particularly here in the US, because nobody here is at risk of going to jail for such comments, so why not make the statement, identify the author, and let the chips fall where they may?

• 7. Christine  |  October 15th, 2007 at 10:50 am

  James and Corey,

  Honestly, I don’t know where to begin. Part of me would love to continue a debate as to whether Chinese people such as myself “lie, cheat and steal.”

  Oh wait, my assumption is going to be that you meant to say Mainland Chinese right? Or do you mean all Chinese? Including those from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore? …or perhaps you may make an exception for my type of Chinese since I grew up in the U.S. — In which case, it’d be a bit difficult to say all Chinese wouldn’t it?

  While I can understand and even relate to the issues you’ve faced while doing business in China, with all due respect, it doesn’t qualify you to make assumptions of an entire culture based on your limited experience in your limited number of years there and your limited industry.

  I made just as many local Chinese friends during my years living/working in China as I did expats. Thankfully, they know better than to say that all Americans are arrogant, self centered, condescending jerks when they see and hear of examples of typical ignorant loud mouthed Westerners staggering out of expat bars drunk with 2 Chinese girls half their age hanging onto each of their arms and cursing at the taxi driver for not understanding their foul mouthed slurred attempt at directions back to his apartment.

  Its such attitudes about doing business in China that continue to be perpetuated outside of China. Most often by people who have little knowledge, understanding or concern about Chinese culture to begin with.

  Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to warn my American husband that all these years of building trust with him is about to transition into cheating game mode. I’m sorry, I can’t help it as by your assumptions, my being Chinese predisposes me to this type of behavior and it’s just a matter of time.

  Thank you for pointing this out to all of us. Please feel free to email me as I’d be very interested in continuing this dialog on-air on a future segment of my show.

  Best regards,
  Christine
  The China Business Network

• 8. Chris Carr  |  October 15th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

  Christine,

  Thanks for checking in.

  You nicely put into words what I have struggled with for years to explain to young American students who study China, its history and culture. Well said.

• 9. Simeon  |  October 15th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

  As an ABC (American Born Chinese), I was a little uncomfortable with the stereotypes in this article. I understand that it’s one opinion based on an experience of one individual, but like any generalization, and Christine put this into words well, we cannot make assumptions of a culture based upon a limited scope of understanding. It is interesting to note, that while Americans view Chinese as “not to be trusted, liars”, the Chinese actually have similar stereotypes about Americans: “open, speak their minds, but not honestly from the heart”. There may be a dash of truth in a stereotype, but they must never be used in preconceptions of a culture’s character as a whole, Chinese, American or any other culture. Thanks to everyone for your thought provoking posts.

• 10. Lonnie  |  October 16th, 2007 at 6:14 am

  How ethnocentric and narrow to blame one’s misfortunes on ethnic differences….

  I too have worked in Asia for more than 20 years of my life. I find the manner in which business is carried out to be remarkably different, but the elements of “the deal” to be essentially the same. That you allowed yourself to be taken advantage of in a business transaction is more likely due to your own business inadequacies and not the gender based morality you assume created it…

  You would likely have been taken to the cleaners far more efficiently in the west.

  Much about business in Asia is implied or tacit and it is an expectation that you know and understand the cultural rules and behaviors that accompany transactions and even ordinary day-to-day relationships….Shopkeepers, colleagues, students and neighbors treat me with the dignity and respect accorded a resident because I have chosen acculturation above supposition and ignorance…I have been cheated by taxi divers in strange cities world-wide, and I have met businessmen who were evil incarnate on 5 continents…China has no monopoly on greed, ambition or self-serving behavior….

  Your lack of respect for the system that feeds and clothes you is likely part-and-parcel of your inability to succeed without calamity…

• 11. David DeGeest  |  October 16th, 2007 at 8:56 am

  Hi Corey and James,

  I too have been living in China, and can understand some of what you talk about. In China (as everywhere else), you must be a shrewd business person or people will try to cheat you. In China (as everywhere else), there are plenty of people who will be happy to cheat you out of as much as money as they can. In China (as everywhere else), you should do business on your terms as much as possible, if not always. And in China (as everywhere else), business is business.

  Does the word racist mean anything to you two?

  There are lots of stories like one posted here:
  http://www.chinasnippets.com/2006/03/03/chinese-business-scams-china-fever/

  And they are, for some reason, seen as typical. But let’s not forget one thing that is ever-present in this scam. Is it wrong for the Chinese folks here to scam these poor innocent Westerners out of their hard-earned money?

  These Westerners, like so many who succumb to China and who suffer from scams in the middle kingdom, are victims of their own greed. This deal described is too good to be true for most, and it is their own avarice, not a racial predilection for cheating, that causes this company to lose its shirt in China.

  What bothers me so much is that someone, including our own Corey and James, might imagine these Westerners are innocent of the tricks that these Chinese are playing on them, and that they are being faced with some kind of deceitful treachery that is based solely on the color of Chinese skin. There is some kind of white innocence at the heart of this story: some kind of naivety that suggests that despite their refusal to do due diligence on this country or company, their willingness to take the bait of a “big” company in China, and their ease in believing that this company is going to work with a company they have known for only a matter of days in simple foolishness. For Corey and James, it seems there is some kind of white ethically naive innocence confronting a yellow peril of lying, cheating, stealing Chinese. It is this racism that bothers me. The racism fueled here by the yellow threat of Chinese cheating is akin to the blatant “yellow peril” racism of 1800s America and should be treated as such.

  I, like Chris, find your refusal to leave an identity here putting your credibility at a low ebb.

  I, like Chris, agree that without some kind of meaningful, quanitifiable definition of cheating, this discussion is pointless. Otherwise, the word is a loaded word charged with psychology and with a bitter stereotype about Chinese people that only has roots in anecdotal stories about China.

• 12. Simeon  |  October 16th, 2007 at 4:12 pm

  “Before I open this can of worms, let me make clear from that outset that I am not the “source” of this perception. Nor do I believe it. I merely report what the perception by some is as I have heard it over and over from a number of people. So don’t shoot the messenger.”

  Please note that author of the article, quoted above, did mention that this was not his personal view. It is the view of others that he has observed. Just a reminder to any future bloggers. :>

• 13. Morgan O'Hara  |  December 21st, 2008 at 6:00 pm

  I thoroughly enjoyed the Janet Camorsky speech. What stuck in my mind was her description of guanxi. It’s not knowing the person with the title – it’s building a map of them, figuring out their network, who really holds the power, what motivates them, what they like to do, where they like to go, etc. To stretch the limits of allegory, I’d argue that we should view Chinese and Indian culture in a similar way. Like one of those youtube node maps, where more options appear every time you move the mouse over a new video. With regards to characterizing China or India, things are rarely clear cut; consider all the angles, tussle with them, and come not to conclusions, but rather view each experience as a step, thanks to which your awareness can grow and allow you to work your way further up.

  I’m glad the Useless Tree Blog mentioned the Tao Te Ching. I got a copy for a classmate. I don’t want to put him on the spot, but maybe that can become the Cal Poly communal copy? If you’re at all interested in China, or if you like to think, then you’ve got to read this book. It’s a small collection of sonnets, and its wisdom is staggering. What’s more, each translation of the Tao Te Ching is strikingly different (there are dozens of translations). And each time you read it you will interpret it in a different way, and gleam new insights. All this, I hope, strengthens the notion that generalizations are shallow, and understanding is a process.

  Is it more important to understand a culture and look at what forms the behavior at issue, or, to understand how a culture is expressed by those who practice it? I’d argue that each is important, and that the two are interchangeable – if you view things holistically, you should be able to improve your understanding of both at the same time.

• 14. Mark Wegemer  |  January 7th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

  Christine above makes a nice addition to the posts talking about said limited knowledge about dealing with said limited people in China. I agree with what she has shown that a mindset should be formed about those that you have dealt with. You cannot make slanderous accusations about a certain race or religion. These are the kind of accusations that have caused trouble throughout history; races blaming other races for ignorance. It’s pathetic to say the least but it happens to everyday life here in the United States.
  Now that we are on accusations and equality, the United States of American has recently elected a said African American President. People are already labeling him as African American and I don’t think its right to do so. He is the next United States president but labeling him as African American shows the need for the United States to label everything. Equality is far from being equality. For China, for the world, there will always be labels for everything made by everyone. It is a shame that it has become this way.

• 15. Oscar Merlin  |  January 16th, 2009 at 10:37 am

  It makes my stomach churn when I listen to people talk and generalize things about a culture that they have never been exposed to. And my stomach churns even more when people travel abroad and just reinforce the bad concepts that they have built up on their minds over the years. Perhaps you may never physically look Chinese but if you remove all of the barriers in your head and try to assimilate as much as possible then you will in fact become Chinese. All you have to do is to be open minded and learn to accept. Otherwise you are just running around seeing things through your own glasses and say things like ‘the Chinese lie, steal, and cheat’.

• 16. David McKinnon  |  January 22nd, 2009 at 5:35 pm

  I couldn’t get the Janet Carmorsky audio cast to open, but the rest of the info was fascinating.

  Hmmm, how do I think the Chinese see us? It’s hard for me to say without making generalizations about them. When I think of China I think of history. I think of of meditation (maybe from all the karate films). Our nation is so young compared to their history. I think they view us as fast-living, fat slobs with little regard for respect, history and tradition.

  The paper on “Does Culture Affect Economic Outcomes?” had some interesting info. It’s the classic “what came first, the chicken or the egg” argument. Regarding poor economies: Is there little opportunity because of an unmotivated workforce, or is the workforce unmotivated because of little opportunity? It showed some interesting correlations between culture, religion, gender, birth rates, etc.

• 17. Chris Carr  |  January 22nd, 2009 at 9:06 pm

  Yep, looks like the Carmosky audio podcast and link went bad.

  Rats.

• 18. Andrea Muntzel  |  January 25th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

  I thought this blog was interesting but I thought the comments were particularly educational. The ‘stereotyping’ issue is one that has and will be debated many different times and many different ways. I would like to bring up something I’ve mentioned in a previous blog and that is this: stereotypes are our brain’s natural tendency to simplify the overwhelming reality we are faced with every day. It’s something that helps us survive but it’s also something that can hold us back. I reiterate my opinion that we should be aware of our own stereotypes and be willing to accept information that is contrary to those preconceived notions we hold. I don’t underestimate the necessity of stereotypes though. A few weeks ago I was walking home from school on the street I use every day. I try not to walk there after dark because one side is lined with orchard and there are times when few cars pass. Since winter came, it has started getting darker and I found myself walking along that street after the sun had set. I made a turn and I came across a middle-aged man dressed in tattered clothing, sitting on the ground under a tree. As I walked past him, he stood up and fell into step a few yards behind me. I admit, I stereotyped him. He could have been the kindest, most gentle man in the world who looks homeless because he gave everything he owned to the poor, but my survival instincts told me to be on my guard and to get past the orchard. I don’t think this is wrong. I also don’t think it’s wrong to be cognizant of the fact that people have been cheated doing business in China and so we should be aware of that. I know that a serial killer could look homeless or like a millionaire but if a strange man falls into step behind me in a risky location, I shouldn’t be stupid. If I’m doing business with a Chinese businessperson or an American one, I’m going to recognize the fact that they are probably trying to make money in whatever ways they can, depending upon their personal ethics and I’m not going to be careful dealing with either of them.

  I agree with Christine in that making generalizations about a certain group of people is not only wrong, it’s impossible. I don’t think the article, James, or Corey are right by any means but as a student trying to learn about China, it’s good to hear both the good and the bad experiences people have had doing business in China.

• 19. Jenna Healy  |  February 6th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

  I think it can be assumed any foreign country has people eager to “lie, cheat and steal” because well, we often times don’t know any better… and tourists have money. I’m not saying this is right by any means, but point being, it’s not just China. I’m sure as a tourist in the U.S., the perception may be different as well.

  My family vacationed on Cozumel last Christmas and were warned not to get into private taxis leaving the airport. I knew better as we were approached by a man, but he gave us a great quote, so we took it. Again, I knew better. When we arrived at our destination, he showed us the chart, except it was a different chart! I have a memory for numbers and knew he had tricked us, but at that point, you just pay what they ask. Were we cheated, lied to? Yes, but we were also warned profusely, so whose fault was it? Did he need that 100 dollars more than we did? Probably.

  I like The Useless Tree’s perspective. How can you classify the Chinese as having one particular mindset? Could you do that about Americans? I suppose we would all be overweight, unhealthy, lazy, in debt, money grubbing patriots? Oh, and American women give up their careers after they have kids. Does that accurately capture all of us? No way! But does it capture some of us? Absolutely.

• 20. Nick Chamness  |  February 12th, 2009 at 8:39 am

  The whole dress shoe point at the end of the blog got me thinking. Yes many go and pay the crazy price for the brand name, but like many things people in the U.S. purchase, it is not something you NEED. Because of this I do not feel that there is much gouging going on, and feel that in many cases consumers have a choice whether to buy into the branding of the product, or find a suitable and cheaper alternative. Gouging should only be used in regards to products that are essential. I guess you could argue what that really means as well.

  As far as the stereotyping of other cultures in business goes, we see it happening here all of the time. I cannot count the number of times I have heard people say that “Mexicans” (actually a number of these legal or illegal immigrants are from Central/South America as well, but are clumped into one category) are lazy and always try and steal from you. Yet these same people that make these claims continually hire these people to do cheap labor. I guess money does talk.

  In my own experience these Latin American immigrants work back-breakingly hard and are some of the most friendly, caring and family oriented people I know. The point is, that despite what you hear about other cultures, it is important to make up your own mind once have experienced them. Don’t be a lemming!!!!

• 21. Cece Reyes  |  February 13th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

  The blog postings about the stereotyping of both the Chinese and American cultures are exemplary of the danger of generalizations. As you can see, each and every person will have a different experience in any particular culture. There are Chinese and American people who lie cheat and steal, as there are plenty in both cultures who do not. Most of us have an inside view of American business and we have our own generalizations and stereotypes about Americans and how we do business. Is it fair to expect the same business practices in another culture? Is it safe to assume that our view of American business is the view that other cultures have of American business? Culture will always contribute to business and ethics and it might be impossible to define cheating across cultures. Something we may define as cheating may not be considered to be cheating in another culture. Why would my view and definition me more valid than another?

  For every bad experience in China, there is likely a good experience as well. Being open to experiencing another culture, including their business practices, is something that I choose to do. You may go in with preconceptions, but you can not let that cloud your actual experience with the people. In my travels I have found that my experiences have been enhanced by being open to the differences in cultures, rather than judging the experience through my limited American perspective.

• 22. Mark Polydoris  |  February 13th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

  While it is silly to generalize TOO much about a particular group of people (especially when’s a billion of them), I must say that living under a communist regime must have a very different effect on the overall mindset of the Chinese people. More importantly, this Communist regime is not even really that communist anymore, as it has been dynamically changing over the past twenty years or so. It must be very strange to see the mindset of the government change.

  I’ve heard culture defined as simply as “the way you do your thing,” and I think that’s a pretty accurate, all-encompassing definition of macro-cultures and a lot of the kitschy sub-cultures that we find here in the states. While I don’t think that the culture of business is based around lying, cheating and stealing, it’s fair to say that the culture of business is getting the best deal you can. And we’ve all heard the pitch for stereotypes: they’re not all bad, they can be used as reference points, sometimes they’re true, blah blah blah…

  And even though all of us are aware of the ‘bad’ type of stereotyping, I’m sure all of us will come back from this trip with a perception of how we view the Chinese (and Chinese business), amalgamated through a handful of limited experiences. I think it’s very cool that we are reading and preparing so much for this trip through the assigned readings and the blogs, because all of it gives us a frame of reference for what the country has been through and is going through. Obviously, we probably won’t ask the average Chinese guy on the street how he felt about Zakaria’s portrayal of the people, but all of this preparation will be useful to compare and contrast against our experiences on the ground.

  Oh yea, and Morgan mentioned the copy of Tao Te Ching. It’s been sitting on my nightstand for longer than I’d care to admit, but I’m happy to make it the communal copy. That is, of course, as long as you don’t lie, cheat or steal it from me.

• 23. Jimmy Spann  |  February 15th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

  I think that it is hard to generalize about every single Chinese businessperson. But I do like what James said earlier in his comment, “Trust no one.” If you are unsure about what they are doing, or the offer that they are giving you, then walk away and/or get a second opinion. When you are new to a country, you should always be a little cautious because the locals know that you are new and are an easy target for scams. I know that we as Americans do it all of the time. So why is it hard to believe that other people in other counties would do the same thing.

  It is always helpful to get a trustworthy guide and/or have someone to show you the ropes and help built up your network before you start doing business over there. In a capitalist environment, everyone is out to get what is best for him or her. They come up with new business ideas and ways of cheating the system to make a buck. If the way of cheating the system is to cheat a foreigner that you know will not be able to take you to court or will not be able to fight back to even the playing field, then I would consider you a smart person. Ethical??? That’s another topic though.

  When I was in Mexico, I could tell that all of the little shop owners would purposely not post the prices of their items. Depending on who asked them, they would tell them a different price. If you were someone who seemed to have a lot of money, or someone that really liked the item, they would tell you a higher price. If you were someone who didn’t seem to want to item, or didn’t seem to have a lot of money, then they would tell you a more reasonable price. From the buyer’s point of view, I hated it because I wanted to get the best deal possible. From the seller’s point of view, it is smart because they are getting the best price. Shady dealing?? Remember there is two sides to every story.

  If it is better for me to make one deal over another, then I will take that deal. So I would expect anyone in business to be making these same types of decisions. I cannot blame someone for looking out for himself or herself first. I know I would think long and hard about my options.

• 24. Victoria Rodriguez  |  February 21st, 2009 at 1:41 am

  No one race, culture, nationality, neighborhood can be labeled to include all or even most people. Growing up poor caused me to walk most places - a very very short young girl walking alone a night is like carrying a neon sign with a loud speaker, so I was approached/almost assaulted on a number of occasions. The men who did this were of all different races. And yet, other males (of varying races) came to my rescue. I realized back then that two people who come from the exact same circumstances can be completely different. The same goes for business situations. The truth is that anything is possible and can and does happen everywhere.

  With this said, in any new setting, a person should complete due diligence with planning and research. The more you know about the situation, the better. Laws are created to protect, but they cannot always prevent.

  I try to prepare myself for situations. When things go awry and someone does something to me that I consider being unethical (but legal), I process the situation, learn and move on. Then I hope I am wiser the next time.

• 25. Eric White  |  February 21st, 2009 at 9:16 pm

  Though it may be wrong to generalize about a particular culture or people everyone does it. Its human nature to project past selective experiences to a broad base. With most generalizations, we will come out ahead. If this wasn’t true, we would stop making over generalizations. The tricky thing about generalizations is that even when most of the time you are correct in your assumptions, there will always be the minority to which generalizations do not apply that prove you wrong. Therefore, and especially for us that are greener to Chinese culture, it is prudent to put generalizations in the back of your mind, but evaluate each situation/person on its own merit.

  Personally, I have not heard the stereotype that all Chinese businessmen lie cheat and steal compared to those in the West. To that, I would ask how can you compare the two? The west has social and cultural norms of best practices. Westerners who do business here understand what is accepted and abides by those unspoken rules. Foreigners doing business in China do not have the luxury of having an innate sense of the cultural norms in place. It is my opinion that those who say ALL Chinese lie cheat and steal dont understand the environment they are doing business in. Even here in America we say ignorance of the law is no excuse. My point is to know the rules before you play the game. Though there are hustlers out there, knowing the rules will enable you to sift through the dishonest businessmen easier and hopefully find the right person to do business with.

• 26. Patrick Johansing  |  March 3rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm

  Perhaps it’s my Paso coming out, but I’ve never had any discussions on Chinese culture before coming to this class. I’m not entirely sure what to expect when I’m over there, but all this work we’ve been doing should help me out some. I don’t expect to come back with any of those sort of biases, but I’ll make sure to watch out for it anyways. I imagine Americans have a bad reputation just about everywhere. I think that foreigners are angry at us for being ‘imperialistic,’ loud and rude. This kind of puts more pressure on us when we’re over there to be polite and respectful.

• 27. Jessica Harris  |  March 4th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

  I enjoyed reading this post as well as the comments of everyone so far. Jenna, the story of your family getting taken advantage of when you were vacation reminds me of one of my own. While vacationing in Italy for a month the kids of our traveling group were begging for some American food. We found a Burger King and quickly ordered and paid without even thinking. When my grandfather looked at the receipt he determined that we had been charged over twice what we should have been. I guess we still hadn’t gotten the conversion thing down (this was when Italy started using the Euro). So, being the man that my grandfather is he confronted the cashier, made a scene, and got the money back. My family took a little bit of a different approach than Jenna’s. Ha.

  To comment on the generalization of types of people, I agree with Eric. Though we all know that it is not entirely true, we all do it, whether it is subconsciously or consciously, but it is important to be aware that regardless of the background or culture that a person has, there are always exceptions. An example I will use is one of a child who is raised with a parent who is an alcoholic. Sometimes that child will become an alcoholic themselves, while other times that child will see the horrible negatives effects that alcoholism can have on the family as well as the person themselves and decide to never touch the stuff. This is the same for the stereotype that Chinese businesspeople lie, cheat, and steal because (as some of you mentioned before) they just don’t know any better or that is what they have seen in the past. Some businesspeople might continue to be a part of that stereotype, while others might see that stereotype and choose to do everything in their power not to fall into it.

  To sum it up I just have to say that there are honest businesspeople and dishonest businesspeople in every county and we are all bound to run into some of each, but I think it is important to not just assume that because someone has a certain culture or background that they are going to be that way. I am not going into China or India thinking that, and I am sure that I won’t be coming out of China or India thinking that either.

• 28. James McMillan  |  March 7th, 2009 at 9:59 pm

  I enjoyed the arguments in the earlier posts. James and Corey really seemed to fall into the trap of showing casing those people that make strong sweeping generalizations. I don’t doubt that they have had a very different experience with cheating in China than they have had in the US but at the same time I side with Dr. Carr in that it obviously occurs here in the US as well. Maybe it is a little less obvious or takes on a different form but there no question that it occurs. I agree that if the discussion were to go on further a definition of cheating would need to be established. I’m not so sure though that I would put a high mark up price in that category. I figure as long as you not misleading the customer on the quality, features, etc of a product that you can and should sell it for as high as you can. One of the main goals of business is to maximize profit and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with selling your product to the highest bidders. Of course you will eventually reach that point at which the price becomes too high and your marginal profit begin to decline.
  RE: generalization. We all do it and I don’t know that anyone can completely control it but we must learn to not let it get out of hand. I cannot tell you how many times I developed an impression of someone the 1st time I met them based on some pre-conceived notion and after I have got to know them, I see them in a completely different light. I hate it when I have known someone for a while and they tell me that they thought I was one way when they first met me which was totally off base. If I hate to be pre-judged then I must remember that I should not do it to others. Doing so only leads to an increased chance of a missed opportunity to establish a relationship with a potential friend, business contact, information source, etc.
  All this being said, I hate to say it but I will probably have a small pre-conceived notion in the back of my head as to what the Chinese are like. Up until this point I would have never thought there were generalizations that the Chinese cheat and or lie more often than other cultures. I think it will only be human nature for me to remember this blog post somewhere in the back of my head when I conduct some form of business with the Chinese. My goal will be to combat this and to not let it cause me to miss out on any opportunities.

• 29. Andre Ourthiague  |  March 10th, 2009 at 10:37 pm

  This discussion reminds me of Vance Miller from the “Brits Get Rich in China” video. He justified being so brash (to put it gently) towards the business men in China by labeling everybody as “liars, cheats and thieves.” Preconceptions of an entire culture can be very dangerous, especially when they are the primary factor that shapes behavior. It is impossible to truly learn from an experience if you have decided its outcome ahead of time. It is necessary to understand the underlying reasons that have created certain perceptions. I will stop now before a mention the importance of UNDERSTANDING differing worldviews…darn, too late.

• 30. Raquel Rusing  |  March 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

  Wow. After reading all those comments, it’s clear to me that my input is fairly inadequate. With that said, here are some stereotypes that I think the Chinese have of us Westerners:

  -Americans have a pitiful family life
  -Americans are all white, more particularly blonde haired and blue-eyed
  -Americans love war
  -All Americans are overweight and we would die without our french fries and hamburgers and 60 oz. sodas
  -All Americans loved George Bush Jr.
  -All Americans own guns
  -All Americans are rich
  -All Americans are wasteful
  -America is promiscuous

  Granted I could be way off, but who knows. Most seem relatively accurate. Kidding.

  On the other side, these are the pitiful stereotypes of the Chinese people that I’ve heard:

  -Being Chinese equates to mathematical genius
  -Chinese people cannot drive well
  -There is no difference between Chinese and other “Asians”
  -There is no such thing as independent thought in China. If you express any idea that isn’t approved by Chairman Mao you will be instantly sent to jail or shot.
  -All Chinese people are karate masters
  -Chinese tourists wear Hawaiian shirts and take too many pictures
  -Anything to do with China is “ancient” and “mysterious”

  Ultimately, the stereotypes on both sides are sad, but such is the way of the world. Do your part to prove them wrong.

• 31. Michael Mossman  |  March 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

  Many people tend to generalize a culture or country based on a very limited number of experiences and interactions. I am sure there have been many western businessmen and businesswomen who have gone to China looking for a great agreement with a Chinese company for manufacturing or distribution. If that deal goes bad, they probably walk away thinking the whole country’s business works like the one they made their first bad deal with. Then they start telling their co-workers and business acquaintances how bad it is to deal with the Chinese; this is the beginning of untrue views, opinions, and rumors.

  I have been learning about the many faces of China throughout this year. One thing I have taken away is that people and culture are different in each region of China and it is impossible to generalize and put everyone under category. There is the good side, the bad side, and the ugly side. I hope I only deal with the good side, but I am sure I will have to face the bad and the ugly side one day. It is important to not let the bad and the ugly sides sour the view of everyone and everything in China.

  The Chinese have their own generalizations of America; I do not know exactly what they think of us but I am sure former Pres. Bush was not exactly admired by them. This trip will open my eyes to China, but it will also open my eyes to the way Chinese view Americans and our culture.

• 32. Xiaofei Song  |  March 17th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

  It is very interesting to read the stereotypes about Chinese people from Americans. Anyway, these are stereotypes come from some people’s experience. It helps for us to read them before the trip, but I think the most important purpose of the trip is to explore China and India by ourselves. Chinese culture has a very long history, not just 200 or 300 years. I think only understand the history will help us to understand the culture. Also, some of the phenomenon might be formed due to the current living standard. I don’t think it should be considered as part of Chinese culture. If a I sales people ask for ridiculous price, I think they are the product of capitalism (profit maximization).

• 33. Scotty Hayes  |  March 18th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

  Long term business relationships are built on trust and I am pretty confident any business person in the world will tell you this. However, no matter where you are in the world people are going to lie, cheat, and steal. I would mention to just be cautious, especially if you are transacting in a one time deal. And if you get ripped off because you paid too much for a brand name fake watch or purse or whatever, good. Those people need the money more than you do.

• 34. Andrew Welborn  |  March 18th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

  If there is no way to quantify the theories laid down, how can there be a strong educated opinion? To me it seems like a oversimplified generalization based on a subset and experiences will be different. I too know plenty of Americans who lie through their teeth to get what they want and are willing to switch sides often and with ease. These generalizations could have some basis, but unless there is strong evidence, I will be waiting to make my own opinion after experiencing China far beyond this trip and not after our less than three week stay.

  Cultural differences may be partly to blame in regards to cutting in line and such, but is that really cheating to them if it is common practice? I would vote no. It is all relative; if there are no laws in place to prevent something, people will take advantage of it, find loopholes, etc. Doesn’t this sound familiar here in America based on the past few years? I believe culture affects business, but neither one solely defines the other. Another strong factor that has been brought up is the regime in China over the past half century where corruption and bribery were ways to improve one’s position. Having an understanding of the basis of Chinese culture and what drives their values is key to understanding and predicting the range of actions in a given situation.

  And just like some Americans have their biases; it is difficult not to assume that there are Chinese that have similar assumptions about us. I would assume that they think we all continuously buy crap to surround ourselves with while sitting around telling crude disrespectful jokes in lounge chairs. I don’t think I would try to “take advantage” of these stereotypes because that would only further them. Also, I don’t ever want someone else to view me as that type of person.

• 35. David Caldwell  |  March 18th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

  I’ve seen people here in the US with unfounded biases that embarrass me, but I’ve also experienced them from people who hardly know me when I travel abroad. I was on a tour in Eastern Europe shortly after the US unilaterally invaded Iraq in 2003, and I started finding it more and more appropriate to keep my nationality to myself - I even joked around with one of my friends about trying out a fake Australian accent. It isn’t these chance encounters though that I think are that important though, it’s the long-lasting, financially binding relationships where these preconceptions start really becoming a nuisance. I think you have to handle this problem from two angles:

  1) Don’t try to pigeonhole an entire people group based on a small interaction; understand that there are always going to be exceptions to the norm. It could be that the person that you have a negative experience with is a few standard deviations off the mean, or it could mean that you’re passing up a diamond in the rough.

  2) Accept that not everyone is going to accept you for who you think you are. Don’t be “that guy” or claim that you didn’t know something…you’re just a “stupid American.” Make an effort to challenge the stereotypes people may hold for you.

• 36. Josh Hickman  |  March 19th, 2009 at 9:43 am

  I think that Raquel painted the picture best with her examples of Chinese and American stereotypes. These and a thousand other falsities plague our perceptions of people from different countries, cultures, cities, states, and colleges. The truth is that we are all people and really the only thing that someone can accurately generalize about human beings is that we all are bombarded with wrong information. Sure there are Americans that are greedy and own guns. Sure there are some Chinese who are great at math and can’t drive. But to generalize an entire population with over 1/6th of the earth’s population is just stupid. How does this happen? Why do people allow a bad experience with someone that is from a different culture or place that they turn into an idea applying to everyone from that area or of that culture? We all need to check ourselves before making a statement that could damage our credibility. I know I am guilty of stereotyping and I think we all are. We just need to be a little more careful.

• 37. Alex vanDalen  |  March 19th, 2009 at 10:36 am

  Don’t all people “lie, cheat, steal”…? Maybe not each person as it is much harder to make any generalizations when talk about individuals, however I can think of plenty of examples of blatant dishonesty, fraud, and worse from every single culture in every single time period. It is human nature to do these things and anyone who accuses others of this behavior is conveniently forgetting all the many instances whey they have themselves been less than honest.
  I believe that stereotypes exist primarily out of laziness. When speaking about a large enough population of any type, one can easily make overarching statements that fit the mark. Take the fortune cookie I got the other day for example, it said “You are rational and introspective”. Well thank you very much but I believe just about everyone thinks about their own existence and believes that they are rational in their analysis. Generalizations are generally useless.

• 38. Matthew Neal  |  March 19th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

  The issue of over generalization of a culture is always very scary. If you immediately pigeonhole a society, you take yourself out of any potential learning that you may experience when actually meeting someone from a particular culture. I think that this rings particularly true when trying to pigeonhole a country of over 1.2 billion people. Just try and think about the “typical American”. I know for a fact the stereotypes from the “deep south” are much different than a surfer kid from San Diego, or the cowboy from Texas. (I know I’m stereotyping by area here) This being said America is a country of only about 300 million. Are we seriously ignorant enough to think that we can classify a country four times the size?!? I am sure, just like every country that there are people that defy the traditional characteristics of being “Chinese”. This said I also believe that there is a reason behind virtually every stereotype out there, whether true or not.

  I believe that with China it all comes down to differences in culture. Something that may seem completely innocent and normal to a Chinese person can come off completely different to an American. This is not due to truly trying to deceive one another, but simply a misunderstanding of what is normal in a culture and what isn’t. Until you sit back and try to understand WHY someone is doing something you will never understand how to deal with them, both on your terms as well as theirs. One of the things that I found interesting in the stereotypes present of the Chinese was the seemingly contradictory “never trust anyone” but also that networking was essential. In America it is trust and relationships that builds your network; it seems hard to have one without the other.

  When experiencing a person from another culture I think it is best to take everyone one at a time. Over generalizations can lead to missed contacts, business relationships, and opportunities. Although there may be reasons for stereotypes, take everyone for who they are and then make decisions about them as a person, not where they are from, or what culture they may belong to.

• 39. Matt Eves  |  March 19th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

  Corey’s comments are worth noting because he has lived and experienced the Chinese business arena. The more people you talk to - the different ends of the spectrum you’ll hear. I found interesting his assessment that poverty and a fear of being left behind drives business practice. So, in fact, in may not be lie, cheat and steal so much as survival of the fittest. Stereotyping is a foolish and horrible thing that we all are guilty of but as Raquel said, “do your best to prove them wrong.” People will always surprise you.

• 40. Ashley Breneman  |  March 20th, 2009 at 12:08 am

  I definitely do not think that a generalization can not be made based on one person’s experience and encounters with Chinese business people. After watching the video of the three British men trying to get rich in China, you definitely saw some of the men being taken advantage of. However, I do not view this as the Chinese men cheating, lying, and stealing. I look at it as them doing business. Just as many companies are outsourcing because they can have a large profit margin, the Chinese companies are going to in turn get the most they can out of us. If we are already paying much lower prices than in the states, then why wouldn’t they try to make the selling prices a little higher. In my opinion, the foreigners who get taken advantage of are those who do not know how to do business with people in China. They are beyond ignorant if they think that the Chinese people will just offer to give them the lowest prices possible. After all, it is business.

  I also thought it was interesting thinking about the fact that so many companies greatly increase prices in the United States that don’t even cost a tenth of the price to make. I think every time any of us wants to make a generalization on the trip we need to dig deep and look at our own culture. There are many business people out there who are just as deceptive as the next. We get the choice of whether we want to practice our business in this manner. In the end, the best way to avoid being cheated is to be very prepared and know what to expect from the companies and executives you will be dealing with.

• 41. Jamie Hastings  |  March 20th, 2009 at 10:30 am

  I am pretty sure that a lot (not all b/c that is a generalization) of Chinese probably have a negative perception of Americans. A lot of it is due to our diplomacy over the past few years especially with our war on terror. It has not won us any brownie points with the world.

  I ran into this in New Zealand of all places this last summer. One night we were out partying with some Kiwi fiends and essentially my girlfriend and I were verbally attacked by our friends for the U.S. involvement in Iraq. It was apparent that this was common for Kiwi’s to have a negative view of Americans. To them we were simply power hungry consumers that had to exploit the world to continue our luxurious life. However, just because we ran into a bad generalization about American’s doesn’t leave the door open for us to do so when we go to China. As stated in the article, generalizations set you up for failure. As tough as it may be, you have to try to have an open mind and throw generalizations out.

• 42. Logan J Travis  |  March 20th, 2009 at 11:51 am

  Hmm, I wonder if the day will come when Americans earn their “lie, cheat, and steal” merit badge. The recent rumblings in the financial sector furthered that aim significantly. I was especially amused to read about Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao calling the security of U.S. treasuries into question. Of course he wants reassurance, anyone would when they see a debtors account displaying “trillion” repeatedly written in red ink.

  I think the important things to realize is that cultures don’t “lie, cheat, and steal,” individuals do. A person also only breaks social decency standards when he/she perceive it as equitable. So, if you find yourself saying a country or people can only “lie, cheat, and steal” consider two things: 1) You’re wrong and 2) Don’t add another incentive to people to behave ignobly.

• 43. Amy Cook  |  March 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am

  It seems from the lists on the linked blogs that Chinese and American mindset are so different and are rooted in such different histories and cultures that it would be impossible to put together an actual set of rules that are expected to be followed while doing business between the two countries. Without any such rules, who defines what is cheating and what is being strategic? It seems that the most effective way to avoid being “cheated” or “stolen from” is to learn everything you can about how the Chinese do business and then gain a ton of experience working with them. If you get lied to or cheated, at least you’ve learned the lesson.

  I was trying to decide what I would say if a Chinese woman asked me why so many women quit work when they have children. I think it would be hard to explain coming from different backgrounds. Also, I’m not sure I know why so many women quit work to be home with their children. I know it is supposed to be better to raise kids at home than to send them to day care, but why don’t more women work from home? I’ll have to put more thought into it before I get confronted with that in China…Although I would love to hear the argument on why it is strange to quit work.

  Also, I wonder what experiences students on the trip had the year they returned thinking that the Chinese lie, cheat and steal.

• 44. Justin Miller  |  March 20th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

  I think the most important to be learned from this post and life in general is to judge a person by their actions, and their actions alone. Even if you meet 100 people from one country, and every single one tries to lie and steal from you, you still shouldn’t hold the 101st person liable for your experience with the others. Every single person is different, regardless of their culture or the country they are from. I’m not saying that you should ignore cultural differences, but to judge an entire country off of a few people that you meet is just ignorant.

  As for companies stealing from the people the pay enormous prices for their products, I don’t think it’s stealing. Do you really need that leather handbag that has some stupid logo on it? No. If you want it that badly then you can pay for it. Props to the company for getting you to want to pay that much.

• 45. Jason Larocco  |  March 28th, 2009 at 9:03 am

  After reading the post and attached articles my feeling is the following… Go to any other major city in the U.S. dress liked a tourist, wander around aimlessly, and tell me whether or not you get taken advantage of by a taxi cab driver, street vendor, store owner, etc. Doing business is no different. Go in to a negotiation with a customer or a vendor from any country unprepared and tell me that you don’t get taken advantage of.

  People get frustrated when doing business in Asia because we don’t understand their version of the game thoroughly enough. I do not have the extensive experience that others in this blog chain do, but I have lived through a couple experienced where I have been “cheated” and “lied to”.

  One quick example is the use of certificates of conformance with vendors in China. When I design a mold I include build specifications for that design. Upon completion of the build for a mold the vendor will send me a letter certifying that the mold is in conformance with my design and build specifications. My assumption is that every single vendor I use in China (or domestically for that matter) values the significance of this letter the same way that I do. Obviously this assumption does not play out in the real world. Our relationship is complicated by the fact that the value of the piece of paper and the legal system that enforces its value are not common between us. After understanding that a certificate of conformance meant next to nothing to my vendors I changed my approach. I started to put more effort in to face to face time and explanations of the functional reasoning behind my design specifications. I also had to learn what materials were not as readily available in China and then design around those limitations. I feel this created greater success than trying to explain why a piece of paper was so important. My co-workers who choose to only push the importance of the piece of paper eventually they got tired of being “cheated” and “lied to”.

  I guess my point is that evaluating the circumstances when you and others have been cheated is important. If evaluated properly you can find the common elements that create a more common playing field to do business on. This is not easy and those who can create this common playing field will be the most successful. Blog interactions like this one provide a good environment for this evaluation and they help all of us.

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