Living and Working Abroad — Why Not?
January 16th, 2007
As a part of this trip each year we work on trying to hook you up with a group of expats in China or India for lunch, dinner or appetizers. These are interesting, accomplished and talented people. I want you to be thinking about what types of questions you would like to ask them over a meal if this comes together so that they feel we prepared for a visit with them and we utilize their time effectively. We want to make a great impression on these folks.
For example, why did they become an expat? How did they become one? What are the pros of cons of being an expat? Do they have families and if so what do their families like/dislike about living in China or India? When, if at all, do they plan to return to their home country? Do they comparatively make more money living and working in China/India than than back home and is their standard of living higher in China/India? What, if anything, did they do to prepare for living and working in China/India before they arrived? How are their kids schooled and how much does it cost? Where were their other postings before China/India? Has/will their working in China/India more quickly advance their career than if they had stayed in their home country? These are just a few of the questions you might ask them. Click the “Add Comment” link below and list a few of your own questions you would like ask in order to start to prepare and to get you thinking about this aspect of our trip.
Even if you drink and buy into the koolaid that California or the West Coast is the be all and end all of working and living and you have no desire to presently become an expat, no problem, but you may one day find that things have changed. None of us know what the future may deal to us. You may find that your hate your future job(s) and want to experience something new and adventurous outside of Cali. Or, you may find yourself working for a firm or a client that sends you overseas (China/India?) on a temporary or full-time assignment that is too good to pass up. And if not you, then consider the very high probability that your kids will one day be in the expat game given the way the global economy is working and developing (and how expensive it has become to live in Cali and how most folks have little desire to move to Iowa for work; the California market can/will only go so deep for our children so why not head to Asia for business?). Through this trip experience you can give your kids some good advice!
For a good chapter on the pros and cons of the expat life in China, see/read Chapter 9, “Living in China,” in China CEO: Voices of Experience From 20 International Business Leaders.
Professor Carr October 4, 2007 Addendum: See also this previous post I did re: Benjamin Ross’ fantastic journey to China and his blog (Ben’s Blog), AND, check out this recent interview of Ben that recently appeared over at the Ex-Pat Interviews blog re: Ben’s working in China.
Professor Carr Janauary 8, 2008 addendum: I just came across this article and questionnaire from TransitionsAbroad.com that helps people size up whether they can hack living and working aboard. It is not terribly scientific, but it touches on the main points — flexibility, adaptability, independent, not a me-me-me person, etc.
Click HERE to check it out and take the 5 minute questionnaire.
How did you score?
Professor Carr July 23, 2008 addendum: Check out this excellent blog post I just came across, To Localize Or Not, That’s The Question. This blog is by a former upper management Sun executive in China who now works at Juniper in the Bay area. Although his post relates more to proven upper management execs who have had success and proven performance in their home market and THEN are sent to China to work for the company along with the solid and attractive financial expat package that can go with it, there are some excellent nuggets in this post that will help and apply to you in your earlier career stage. E.g., the tax info in particular.
Entry Filed under: Pre-Departure, Shanghai, China, Misc.
12 Comments Add your own
1. PiPi | February 27th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Trust nanheyangrouchuan to jump all over a thread and distract it. I am one of those ex-pat bums he mentions and I participate in the Sinocidal blog he talks about. I also read all the others and know some of the people and none of us consider ourselves to be bums or selling ourselves short. Sure there are bums out here as there are everywhere, but how do we define a ‘bum’? Someone who is living a different life to escape the ‘norm’ of life back home and trying to get a developing and different perspective on the world?? We all look at life differently and we all grow up differently and we all chose different paths - I’m not sure that makes some people bums and others holier-than-thou procrastinators.
Some people blog in China purely as a means of venting and sharing (sometimes exaggerated) feelings about life in China but that’s not uncommon in any ex-pat community, I’m sure
I am not American so I can’t really help you out with your questions so much, but there’s plenty of people who can help at the blogs he mentions and would be more than happy to help. Not all ex-pats are senior executives and there is a full range of people and skills out here happy to share their experiences.
Good luck with what you’re doing and I hope you learn more about what we do and how we live in China. If you ignore the bitter ex ex-pats like nanhe then you’re more likely to get a balanced point of view.
2. Chris Carr | February 27th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
PiPi,
Thanks for checking in.
Good thoughts and information. Very helpful. I agree. The vast majority of expats I know and run with in China are very, very, very talented people, and incredibly interesting to boot. I learn a lot from them.
You have an awesome blog, by the way. I love the name of it. Keep up the good work! “Free Flopsy” was and is a post for the ages!
3. Brian | February 28th, 2007 at 2:11 am
nanheyangrouchuan seems to be referring specifically to the large community of expats in China that are here teaching. As with the TEFL game in other third world countries, the quality of folks attracted to teaching in China varies greatly. Some are retired teachers from the West that see an opportunity to get some exploring in during their golden years. Others are mid-life, ex-business professionals that found the “rat race” back home demanded too much and provided too little, compared to the conditions in Asia (if you’re white and speak English, that is). Others (myself included) are recent graduates just looking to get a glimpse of this country for a few years before returning home, and using teaching as a very convenient and worthwhile means to that end. Among all of these groups you’ll find people that are “good people” as well as those that aren’t.
But I think this article is focused on business professionals working within China. Which, from what I’ve seen, is a very good gig to get into. High pay and low costs provide a excellent quality of life, granted you’re able to ‘grin and bear it’ when faced with the multitude of cultural differences.
4. Chris Carr | February 28th, 2007 at 8:28 am
Brian,
Thanks for checking in. Good points.
5. nanheyangrouchuan | February 28th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Chris,
I “generalize” based on my experiences. Of course there are some good people, but overall the quality of expats there is quite low. I know of more than a few expats who were promoted out of china to Bangkok, Seoul, Tokyo and Bahrain. Or did their time in China as a stepping stone back to SF, NYC, London or Paris.
Yes, there are quite a few shifty expats in Thailand and even more in Vietnam and the PI, but for the time being, China offers the potential (and I emphasize potential) of more lucrative returns for minimal qualifications. After being in China for so long, many China-focused cannot fit in in the west or even developed places like Japan and SK (who have no tolerance for misbehaving white people just because they are white).
Compare the caliber of expats in places like Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, Berlin and NYC with those in China. BIG difference. To reinforce my position, inquire into the high turnover rate among newly arrived expats in China. Those that stay pretty much have a guaranteed career simply because it is so hard to find better qualified, more capable and less corrupt people to take their place.
6. PiPi | February 28th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
“Those that stay pretty much have a guaranteed career simply because it is so hard to find better qualified, more capable and less corrupt people to take their place.” Do you think that any decent sized company that takes it’s future in China seriously would send or employ someone that is not capable of setting up and running their China operations properly? Do you think these companies settle for less just because it’s China? I would argue that any decent company would prefer to send one of it’s better people to deal with all the issues that you talk about because and idiot would soon fall to pieces and drag the company with him/her.
Sure, it’s hard to find good people that want to come to China long term, especially into 2nd or 3rd tier cities, but that’s why companies still offer very attractive packages to those quality people that are prepared to go there and stick it out. After the China time is up the companies then have a valuable employee who can continue to oversee operations in China from another base in the west or other Asian city if required. Don’t you think a posting to Tokyo or or Bahrain could be a ‘reward’ for doing a good job in China? They also have invaluable business experience for the future since a lot of their future business and strategies will no doubt involve China.
People get well rewarded for what they do and endure but they still must perform. Future rewards also include promotions back in the home country and greater global responsibility within the organisation.
As for the 1st tier cites in China, you may have heard that these are no longer considered hardship postings these days and expat salaries and packages in SH and BJ are apparently going down.
As for your comments about ‘…misbehaving white people just because they are white’ - I’d bet the majority of those ‘white people’ are either young teachers or students who’d misbehave back in the west as well - that’s what happens when you give a child cheap beer. I know that there are a few exceptions to this and that there are some idiots out there who think they’re superior and can get away with anything, but most expats can’t stand those types either and we’d all happily see them kicked out of China.
7. nanheyangrouchuan | February 28th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Some people get rotated out of China (the quality ones), others stay because they get addicted to the white god lifestyle and because someone needs a western warm body to keep things going (the shabby). And it is harder and harder to find experienced chinese in the west who want to go back (the obviously best choice), so companies have to settle for what they can get.
Doing business in China also requires a certain ability to bend moral norms that gets you in hot water in real business cities, why else did companies go to china in the first place? Cheap, abusable labor, ultra low pay, no real envir regs, easy to grease the wheels, etc. No wonder businesses and old hands call the West “semi communist” while calling China “true capitalism”.
As for the ease of living in 1st tier chinese cities (SH and BJ pretty much the only qualifiers, HK is still not quite “chinese”), is it really that easy when you need McDs for a psychological respite, or a weekend getaway is at a local 5 star expat hotel?
Sunday brunches…no price is too high.
And the lack of decent medical care makes medivac to HK, Seoul or Tokyo. How’s that pollution treating ya? The trots, hemorrhoidal flare up and severe colds are just a way of life there. Had a tall cold glass from the tap? I do on a regular basis.
“’d bet the majority of those ‘white people’ are either young teachers or students who’d misbehave back in the west as well”
Um, I see two types of drunks when I come back: young ones who are passed out at the bar or going home with a new friend and middle aged ones who are knocking around young local girls and getting into arguments in chinese (if for no other reason than to show off the language skills).
It’s the middle aged ones who can’t go home, who brag about how many years its been since they’ve seen their families.
That’s the white god lifestyle they cannot do without.
8. Lonnie | March 1st, 2007 at 1:59 am
Great comment PiPi, Great post all..
I have had dinner in the last few weeks three expats making mad money in the gaming industry, a retired professor from Canada donating time to a volunteer English teaching group that instructs poor rural students, a professional golfer (former Canadian PGA) opening a school here (Shenzhen has the world’s largest course), the very successful owners of a leather factory that sources for Nike, the former Vice Counsel in Beijing who holds a PhD in Chinese studies and owns a traiining firm in Shanghai and more….I avoid the cranky drunks who I am sure would be miserable anywhere they lived…
The guys with the leather factory were talking about how strict the new environmental laws had become, the gaming guys were saving up for a VERY early retirement, the golfer was excited to be cashing in on a new boom and the professor, 80 years young, was laying out a five-year plan for his non-profit organization that has grown to 500 teachers in only 5 years….
If these were losers, malcontents or second chairs in any corporate orchestra then I am dumber than my beloved thinks I am…
A faculty post at my college is every bit as hard to get as a teaching assignment in the west though it pays a bit less…I could go for bigger bucks, but I’d get longer hours thrown in and I am happy to be winding down my career here in China with a few less bucks as I can live comfortably on less…
It is just life with a different accent and it will soon be over for all of us…I grouse from time to time, but I really do love it…And I am no “white god”…I do my best to integrate here and people respond in kind….
The local restaurant where you guys will join some expat folks for dinner will not treat you any differently than they do a resident…They may look to a couple of the China old-timers to help translate your needs…I’ll use sign language…
The high turnover rate here is due to the fact that China is damned hard to adapt to…And most of the ones who beat feet have struggled with depression, rage and an inability to adjust from day one in country….Expat syndrome as I have long called it, is not specific to those living in China…It is a worldwide disease caught by people who cannot easily relax in a foreign environment…Young people fresh out of college and its carefree lifestyle find it especially hard here…
I am sure your questions will bring some heartfelt reposnses from a group of great guys who love China….
9. nanheyangrouchuan | March 1st, 2007 at 7:57 am
“I knew a who did such and such a made a bundle”.
We all know of someone either first hand or second hand who made it big. I know a guy who was a director at a IT company and a college friend of his on Wall Street hit him up for $50,000 in seed money for two guys starting a search engine in the mid 90s.
The two guys who started Element Fresh are also doing very well, but they are also the exception to the rule.
10. nanheyangrouchuan | March 2nd, 2007 at 3:45 pm
You can argue my bashing of the China expat community, but you can’t argue the book “Losing the New China”.
That author has testifies in front of Congress and had private lunches with the CIA, FBI, Interpol and a couple of major european intelligence organs.
Oh yes, shifty China expats are being watched.
11. Chris Carr | March 3rd, 2007 at 8:41 pm
nanheyangrouchuan, et al.,
Thanks for the comments.
I too, try to avoid the cranky expats who are bitter and/or drunks.
Like I noted before and as Lonnie and PiPi have aptly pointed out, the expats I know, or I should say have had the good fortune to meet and get to know, are top notch.
See yet another example in today’s Wall Street Journal article (”Asia’s Banker Invasion“) which reads in relevant part (and nanheyangrouchuan please don’t dismiss the WSJs reporters as a bunch of over zealous business and China loving hacks or you will have lost all credibility with me!):
When Paul Calello moved here five years ago to run Credit Suisse Group’s Asian office, the investment-banking operation he took over was peanuts. The main action was in faraway New York. “The old U.S.-centric view of the world was that being sent to Asia was a bit like being sent to Siberia,” the 46-year-old Bostonian said. That’s no longer the case: Last month, Mr. Calello was promoted to be chief executive officer of the company’s global investment bank ….
Good companies send their “bums” to China? I don’t think so.
12. nanheyangrouchuan | March 5th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
I don’t dismiss the WSJ, they report pretty fairly on China. Businessweek on the other hand…
That is one guy, there is always “that one guy”. Read up on China Law Blog about the quality of non-Chinese lawyers in China.
But I’m sure you are aware of how hard it is to get westerners to relolcate China. People are more well-read these days regarding the actual quality of life in China and the total lifestyle package.
That being said, having overseas experience on your resume is good overall, so some quality candidates are willing to suck it up for a few years, then they hightail it back home or to somewhere much better.
Now as for the long term expats who stay behind, they are the real targets of my barbs.
I’ll be Paul Calello really felt he had earned his stripes after dealing with China life for 5 years.
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