43 Comments Add your own

• 1. PiPi  |  February 27th, 2007 at 5:09 pm

  Trust nanheyangrouchuan to jump all over a thread and distract it. I am one of those ex-pat bums he mentions and I participate in the Sinocidal blog he talks about. I also read all the others and know some of the people and none of us consider ourselves to be bums or selling ourselves short. Sure there are bums out here as there are everywhere, but how do we define a ‘bum’? Someone who is living a different life to escape the ‘norm’ of life back home and trying to get a developing and different perspective on the world?? We all look at life differently and we all grow up differently and we all chose different paths - I’m not sure that makes some people bums and others holier-than-thou procrastinators.

  Some people blog in China purely as a means of venting and sharing (sometimes exaggerated) feelings about life in China but that’s not uncommon in any ex-pat community, I’m sure

  I am not American so I can’t really help you out with your questions so much, but there’s plenty of people who can help at the blogs he mentions and would be more than happy to help. Not all ex-pats are senior executives and there is a full range of people and skills out here happy to share their experiences.

  Good luck with what you’re doing and I hope you learn more about what we do and how we live in China. If you ignore the bitter ex ex-pats like nanhe then you’re more likely to get a balanced point of view.

• 2. Chris Carr  |  February 27th, 2007 at 5:32 pm

  PiPi,

  Thanks for checking in.

  Good thoughts and information. Very helpful. I agree. The vast majority of expats I know and run with in China are very, very, very talented people, and incredibly interesting to boot. I learn a lot from them.

  You have an awesome blog, by the way. I love the name of it. Keep up the good work! “Free Flopsy” was and is a post for the ages!

• 3. Brian  |  February 28th, 2007 at 2:11 am

  nanheyangrouchuan seems to be referring specifically to the large community of expats in China that are here teaching. As with the TEFL game in other third world countries, the quality of folks attracted to teaching in China varies greatly. Some are retired teachers from the West that see an opportunity to get some exploring in during their golden years. Others are mid-life, ex-business professionals that found the “rat race” back home demanded too much and provided too little, compared to the conditions in Asia (if you’re white and speak English, that is). Others (myself included) are recent graduates just looking to get a glimpse of this country for a few years before returning home, and using teaching as a very convenient and worthwhile means to that end. Among all of these groups you’ll find people that are “good people” as well as those that aren’t.

  But I think this article is focused on business professionals working within China. Which, from what I’ve seen, is a very good gig to get into. High pay and low costs provide a excellent quality of life, granted you’re able to ‘grin and bear it’ when faced with the multitude of cultural differences.

• 4. Chris Carr  |  February 28th, 2007 at 8:28 am

  Brian,

  Thanks for checking in. Good points.

• 5. nanheyangrouchuan  |  February 28th, 2007 at 6:19 pm

  Chris,
  I “generalize” based on my experiences. Of course there are some good people, but overall the quality of expats there is quite low. I know of more than a few expats who were promoted out of china to Bangkok, Seoul, Tokyo and Bahrain. Or did their time in China as a stepping stone back to SF, NYC, London or Paris.

  Yes, there are quite a few shifty expats in Thailand and even more in Vietnam and the PI, but for the time being, China offers the potential (and I emphasize potential) of more lucrative returns for minimal qualifications. After being in China for so long, many China-focused cannot fit in in the west or even developed places like Japan and SK (who have no tolerance for misbehaving white people just because they are white).

  Compare the caliber of expats in places like Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, Berlin and NYC with those in China. BIG difference. To reinforce my position, inquire into the high turnover rate among newly arrived expats in China. Those that stay pretty much have a guaranteed career simply because it is so hard to find better qualified, more capable and less corrupt people to take their place.

• 6. PiPi  |  February 28th, 2007 at 7:00 pm

  “Those that stay pretty much have a guaranteed career simply because it is so hard to find better qualified, more capable and less corrupt people to take their place.” Do you think that any decent sized company that takes it’s future in China seriously would send or employ someone that is not capable of setting up and running their China operations properly? Do you think these companies settle for less just because it’s China? I would argue that any decent company would prefer to send one of it’s better people to deal with all the issues that you talk about because and idiot would soon fall to pieces and drag the company with him/her.

  Sure, it’s hard to find good people that want to come to China long term, especially into 2nd or 3rd tier cities, but that’s why companies still offer very attractive packages to those quality people that are prepared to go there and stick it out. After the China time is up the companies then have a valuable employee who can continue to oversee operations in China from another base in the west or other Asian city if required. Don’t you think a posting to Tokyo or or Bahrain could be a ‘reward’ for doing a good job in China? They also have invaluable business experience for the future since a lot of their future business and strategies will no doubt involve China.

  People get well rewarded for what they do and endure but they still must perform. Future rewards also include promotions back in the home country and greater global responsibility within the organisation.

  As for the 1st tier cites in China, you may have heard that these are no longer considered hardship postings these days and expat salaries and packages in SH and BJ are apparently going down.

  As for your comments about ‘…misbehaving white people just because they are white’ - I’d bet the majority of those ‘white people’ are either young teachers or students who’d misbehave back in the west as well - that’s what happens when you give a child cheap beer. I know that there are a few exceptions to this and that there are some idiots out there who think they’re superior and can get away with anything, but most expats can’t stand those types either and we’d all happily see them kicked out of China.

• 7. nanheyangrouchuan  |  February 28th, 2007 at 9:19 pm

  Some people get rotated out of China (the quality ones), others stay because they get addicted to the white god lifestyle and because someone needs a western warm body to keep things going (the shabby). And it is harder and harder to find experienced chinese in the west who want to go back (the obviously best choice), so companies have to settle for what they can get.

  Doing business in China also requires a certain ability to bend moral norms that gets you in hot water in real business cities, why else did companies go to china in the first place? Cheap, abusable labor, ultra low pay, no real envir regs, easy to grease the wheels, etc. No wonder businesses and old hands call the West “semi communist” while calling China “true capitalism”.

  As for the ease of living in 1st tier chinese cities (SH and BJ pretty much the only qualifiers, HK is still not quite “chinese”), is it really that easy when you need McDs for a psychological respite, or a weekend getaway is at a local 5 star expat hotel?
  Sunday brunches…no price is too high.
  And the lack of decent medical care makes medivac to HK, Seoul or Tokyo. How’s that pollution treating ya? The trots, hemorrhoidal flare up and severe colds are just a way of life there. Had a tall cold glass from the tap? I do on a regular basis.

  “’d bet the majority of those ‘white people’ are either young teachers or students who’d misbehave back in the west as well”

  Um, I see two types of drunks when I come back: young ones who are passed out at the bar or going home with a new friend and middle aged ones who are knocking around young local girls and getting into arguments in chinese (if for no other reason than to show off the language skills).

  It’s the middle aged ones who can’t go home, who brag about how many years its been since they’ve seen their families.
  That’s the white god lifestyle they cannot do without.

• 8. Lonnie  |  March 1st, 2007 at 1:59 am

  Great comment PiPi, Great post all..

  I have had dinner in the last few weeks three expats making mad money in the gaming industry, a retired professor from Canada donating time to a volunteer English teaching group that instructs poor rural students, a professional golfer (former Canadian PGA) opening a school here (Shenzhen has the world’s largest course), the very successful owners of a leather factory that sources for Nike, the former Vice Counsel in Beijing who holds a PhD in Chinese studies and owns a traiining firm in Shanghai and more….I avoid the cranky drunks who I am sure would be miserable anywhere they lived…

  The guys with the leather factory were talking about how strict the new environmental laws had become, the gaming guys were saving up for a VERY early retirement, the golfer was excited to be cashing in on a new boom and the professor, 80 years young, was laying out a five-year plan for his non-profit organization that has grown to 500 teachers in only 5 years….

  If these were losers, malcontents or second chairs in any corporate orchestra then I am dumber than my beloved thinks I am…

  A faculty post at my college is every bit as hard to get as a teaching assignment in the west though it pays a bit less…I could go for bigger bucks, but I’d get longer hours thrown in and I am happy to be winding down my career here in China with a few less bucks as I can live comfortably on less…

  It is just life with a different accent and it will soon be over for all of us…I grouse from time to time, but I really do love it…And I am no “white god”…I do my best to integrate here and people respond in kind….

  The local restaurant where you guys will join some expat folks for dinner will not treat you any differently than they do a resident…They may look to a couple of the China old-timers to help translate your needs…I’ll use sign language…

  The high turnover rate here is due to the fact that China is damned hard to adapt to…And most of the ones who beat feet have struggled with depression, rage and an inability to adjust from day one in country….Expat syndrome as I have long called it, is not specific to those living in China…It is a worldwide disease caught by people who cannot easily relax in a foreign environment…Young people fresh out of college and its carefree lifestyle find it especially hard here…

  I am sure your questions will bring some heartfelt reposnses from a group of great guys who love China….

• 9. nanheyangrouchuan  |  March 1st, 2007 at 7:57 am

  “I knew a who did such and such a made a bundle”.

  We all know of someone either first hand or second hand who made it big. I know a guy who was a director at a IT company and a college friend of his on Wall Street hit him up for $50,000 in seed money for two guys starting a search engine in the mid 90s.

  The two guys who started Element Fresh are also doing very well, but they are also the exception to the rule.

• 10. nanheyangrouchuan  |  March 2nd, 2007 at 3:45 pm

  You can argue my bashing of the China expat community, but you can’t argue the book “Losing the New China”.

  That author has testifies in front of Congress and had private lunches with the CIA, FBI, Interpol and a couple of major european intelligence organs.

  Oh yes, shifty China expats are being watched.

• 11. Chris Carr  |  March 3rd, 2007 at 8:41 pm

  nanheyangrouchuan, et al.,

  Thanks for the comments.

  I too, try to avoid the cranky expats who are bitter and/or drunks.

  Like I noted before and as Lonnie and PiPi have aptly pointed out, the expats I know, or I should say have had the good fortune to meet and get to know, are top notch.

  See yet another example in today’s Wall Street Journal article (”Asia’s Banker Invasion“) which reads in relevant part (and nanheyangrouchuan please don’t dismiss the WSJs reporters as a bunch of over zealous business and China loving hacks or you will have lost all credibility with me!):

  When Paul Calello moved here five years ago to run Credit Suisse Group’s Asian office, the investment-banking operation he took over was peanuts. The main action was in faraway New York. “The old U.S.-centric view of the world was that being sent to Asia was a bit like being sent to Siberia,” the 46-year-old Bostonian said. That’s no longer the case: Last month, Mr. Calello was promoted to be chief executive officer of the company’s global investment bank ….

  Good companies send their “bums” to China? I don’t think so.

• 12. nanheyangrouchuan  |  March 5th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

  I don’t dismiss the WSJ, they report pretty fairly on China. Businessweek on the other hand…

  That is one guy, there is always “that one guy”. Read up on China Law Blog about the quality of non-Chinese lawyers in China.

  But I’m sure you are aware of how hard it is to get westerners to relolcate China. People are more well-read these days regarding the actual quality of life in China and the total lifestyle package.

  That being said, having overseas experience on your resume is good overall, so some quality candidates are willing to suck it up for a few years, then they hightail it back home or to somewhere much better.

  Now as for the long term expats who stay behind, they are the real targets of my barbs.

  I’ll be Paul Calello really felt he had earned his stripes after dealing with China life for 5 years.

• 13. Morgan O'Hara  |  December 22nd, 2008 at 3:46 pm

  Questions I would ask:

  What’s been the biggest mistake you’ve committed abroad? (Because mistakes are life’s teachers)

  What’s the one thing you haven’t done abroad, but wish you had? (That way maybe you can do it)

  What advice do you have for an MBA grad? (Because open ended questions should let them say what they think is most important)

• 14. Andrea Muntzel  |  December 28th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

  Woah, interesting debate on expats… As with all people, I’m sure there are expats of all different types.

  Since I have never thought I would become an expat, I’m interested in the background that led up to the point of where they are today. I would ask about their path after high school; what their college major was; whether they studied abroad in college; why they wanted to travel, live, and work abroad; if they worked before going abroad; and so on.

  I would also be interested in some of the things related to having a family and being an expat. Professor Carr touched on a lot of those but I would also ask whether spouses could find work and working visas and so on.

  The last thing I would ask about relates to the negotiating portion of the blog post, “To localize or not.” I would ask whether the expats negotiated their offers or if there were things they would change about their compensation packages looking back.

  I really hope we get to meet and talk to some expats on our trip this summer. I would love to get some more insight about their lives!

• 15. Oscar Merlin  |  January 16th, 2009 at 11:13 am

  Questions I would ask:

  -Do you think you are more successful now or before you left your home country?

  -When you first arrived to this new country you were probably in an entrepreneurial spirit, is that still alive?

  -Do you still see yourself as an outsider?

  -There are probably thousands of new entrepreneurs arriving to where you are, has living there really given you the other hand when competing against all of this new entrepreneurs?

• 16. Dan N  |  January 10th, 2011 at 8:03 am

  Prof Carr,
  This is the best post I’ve read thus far. Great discussion from people in the know whose opinions vary widely.

  I’m not surprised at the differing opinions on this subject. I’ve had some exposure to Christian missionaries overseas and have witnessed the same dichotomous nature of that group whether I’m in Fiji, Thailand, or Mexico.

  A portion are truly talented, courageous folks that recognize that life in the ‘burbs and the cubicle is incomplete. They are thriving in their adventurous life on the frontier and having a strong impact in the communities they serve.

  The others, in my opinion, fall into the “bum” category. It’s amazing how often people leave the States to escape their problems or their boredom and find a life that works for them overseas. I like nanheyangrouchuan’s above comment about “white gods”. There are at least as many addicts to the “white god” syndrome in the missionary community as in business or politics.

  It frustrates me that the Westerners in places like China do such a poor job of representing who we really are. If Shirk is right and our future relationship with China depends, in part, on how ordinary Chinese perceive ordinary Americans, then this is a real problem. The American expats that ordinary Chinese deal with on a daily basis aren’t a reflection of who we really are. Whether they are ambitious corporate people in China to fast track their careers or miserable drunks escaping their past, they don’t reflect the majority of Americans’ thoughts and attitudes.

  My question for the expats that we meet in China is this: what responsibility do you feel that you have to represent American in your daily dealings with the Chinese? How does your unofficial role as diplomat influence your behavior at the mall, the zoo, the bar, or on the street?

• 17. David Hart  |  January 10th, 2011 at 3:17 pm

  I think all of the above questions would be helpful to ask expats. I would especially be interested in what kind of preparation they needed to be successful in their career in China. What kinds of cultural differences stand out the most? If you could go back, would you make the same decisions? Why? What have you learned? Where are the best opportunities? Do you have any regrets/advice?

  After taking the survey, I am in the category of “probably succeed.” However, at this point, with my family circumstances, I am not sure it would be in my best interest. Although I would likely enjoy visiting China from time to time, I do not know if it would be a place I would want to move my family to. However, who knows, this could change if the right opportunity came along.

  I enjoyed my opportunity (when I was single) living abroad in Germany for two years. I think everyone should at some point consider immersing themselves in a foreign country by living there. One learns so much about him/herself and others by stepping outside of his/her own cultural comfort zone. I hope to be able to help my own children better understand the world around them by visiting foreign countries. We can learn so much through travel.

  I recently spoke to someone who has a friend who has relocated his family to Shanghai from the US. They love it there. They are raising several kids there and the kids seem to be doing quite well. They say they would not want to move–they are content with the lifestyle China affords them. For some people, living in a place like China is a wonderful opportunity.

• 18. Katie Moeller  |  January 11th, 2011 at 5:28 pm

  I enjoy the blogs that start to challenge our conventional way of thinking. I believe some people are content living in the same state, being by parents, etc. Get out and explore! There’s always time to move back home. This is my way of viewing things since college – I have studied abroad, traveled Europe extensively, moved to California, and now I’m ready to explore Asia. I hope our trip to China will peak interest in others to try new things.

  Having the chance to possibly meet with some expats would be great. I liked Ben’s Blog – what a shining example on going out of your comfort zone. I would like to ask expat’s why they chose to live somewhere else? What do their friends and family think? What’s been the biggest challenge? What makes you home sick? Has it been hard to make friends? What, if anything, would they change about the experience? Meeting with an expat would provide some interesting insight.

  I scored a 38 on the questionnaire – I have what it takes! I know I’ve mentioned it numerous times but I think I’m more willing to try new things since I lived abroad for 5 months. I think living in Asia would be a lot tougher but you have to have a similar mindset. I don’t have any immediate plans on moving to another country to work but it sure would be a fun experience!

• 19. Chris Bruns  |  January 13th, 2011 at 11:39 pm

  So I have lived and worked abroad, and in Australia, a place that speaks English and is relatively “Western” in ideals, it was still a different and challenging experience. I scored a 44 on the test, and I still think I would have some reservations moving to a country in Asia. I think the biggest challenge would be the language barrier, however I have family that continues to live and work in Asia, and describes it as a worthwhile challenge.

  I was amazed by the links provided and all of the resources to help individuals move and work abroad. Ben’s blog and interview was really informative, and I had no idea that a companies and China should cover flights. I also had no idea such sites existed to help people match and prepare for traveling abroad in another country. I hope to live and work abroad again, and I will use the links provided to do so.

• 20. Cassie Bettencourt  |  January 24th, 2011 at 2:55 pm

  I really enjoyed this post especially because in my last blog comment I stated that I had never considered working outside of the United States. Although I would like to stay close to home, it is resources like this that make becoming an expat an actual option. Ben’s Blog definitely shed living the China life in a positive light. There is something to be said about moving somewhere where the country is less wealthy than your own. Ben also portrayed an inspiring attitude about China through his interview. It’s quite amazing that he is able to recognize the “charm” of China stems from the fact that it is an “overcrowded developing nation.” It will be interesting to see how charming I think it is once there. I’m looking forward to using this visit as a gauge of how far internationally I’d be willing to go.

  A couple questions I came up with to ask an expat should we get the chance to meet one in China are:

  -Looking back, would they move to China again or would they move somewhere else?

  -How did they choose China?

  -What has been the most interesting and/or challenging thing about their experience thus far?

  My score on the questionnaire was a 34 so I am right on the cusp of just making it work and going for it. I actually scored higher than I thought I would. I must admit, after reflecting on this further, if I was unable to live in CA, I would definitely consider living internationally over most other states.

• 21. Brady Haug  |  February 2nd, 2011 at 9:21 pm

  “GO FOR IT! You have what it takes.” According to the Transitions Abroad questionnaire, I should pack my bags and go work abroad. I don’t typically think of myself as a huge risk taker and was surprised that even a very topical quiz didn’t have a risk aversion question. I also found it funny that there was a question regarding food. I am known amongst my friends as the world’s pickiest eater. I didn’t score too well on that question obviously. I didn’t know my lack of adventure in food could be such a big detriment.

  Ben’s blog had some interesting comments that were contradictory to what I thought. “The absolute best way to find a job in China is to know somebody there, and have them help you look. (You might even try making contacts on Facebook or MySpace).” I was surprised that he thought Facebook was an effective way to meet employers and that he absolutely recommended using a friend in China. I was further surprised that he suggested to just show up in China and then begin looking for jobs. In thinking up additional questions to ask expats, a few are as follows:

  -Have you been affected by Intellectual Property theft, or do you have friends that have?
  -Are certain industries specifically looking for American managers?
  -How long did it take for you to establish a routine and gain a sense of establishment in China?

• 22. Jessie Wilkie  |  February 11th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

  First, I took the “What it Takes to Live and Work Abroad” quiz and I scored a 30. According to the scoring this means, “25-34 – You may encounter some difficulty, but you will probably succeed”, which seems pretty accurate to me. I had a short stint of five months in a foreign country and I handled it alright. Not the best, not the worst. The questions on this quiz reminded me of it. Especially this one:

  14. When life becomes difficult
  I try to see the humor in it and keep a balanced perspective
  I try to solve my problem but not always with the best attitude
  I sink into a bad mood for a while but usually manage to overcome the problem
  I get depressed and discouraged and usually give up

  Having had many difficult times, I definitely feel that I fall in the second answer. I’m sort of a debbie downer when things turn sour, but I still try to work out my problems. I thought this quiz was simple, but there was a lot of truth in it. It also got me thinking about myself. I tried to think about myself as an observer so that was interesting.

  Second, Ben seems like an amazing guy. I would have to say that I think it would be an easier and more enjoyable experience for a white male to live and work in China than it would be for a woman. Men often times receive more respect in many cultures and they are the stronger sex (for safety reasons). I really liked the fact that he worked in a Chinese barbershop for a month so I actually went and looked up his blog entry on it:

  http://benross.net/wordpress/barbershop-project/

  He used his Chinese girlfriend to help him communicate with the barber and to get the job. He also said the barbershop itself was clean where the rest of China was lacking sanitation. I didn’t read all of his blog postings for the barbershop experience, but it’s interesting. I think it was probably his most valuable experience in China. However, I’m unsure if this is true because he didn’t mention anything about it being the best experience in his expat interview. What caught my eye in that interview is that he said that you get paid a high salary if you western and you have more time and your money goes farther–maybe you could even write the next great American novel. That would make me want to live and work in China…the chance to make enough money to live comfortably, but still have time to pursue passions.

  Finally, some potential questions that I’d like to ask the ex pats…
  *Do you speak the language? If so, how/when did you learn? If not, why not?
  *Do you participate in a lot of local events?
  *Do you find yourself hanging out more with locals or with other expats?
  *Have you ever had any problems with the law?
  *What are your worst fears living where you are living now?

  Oh and “To Localize or not, that’s the question” was interesting. I’m not at the point in my career where I’d be valuable to any company yet. Heck, I haven’t even started my career! But it brought up some good points to keep in mind. Taxes and self worth.

• 23. Jason Jay Sharma  |  February 14th, 2011 at 5:16 pm

  In an earlier post, I mentioned that I wasn’t too keen on working as an expat. I’m not totally for it, but I’m also not totally against it. Based on my responses to the questionnaire, it told me to “GO FOR IT! You have what it takes!” I’ll take that with a grain of salt, seeing that I barely made it into that category with a 36 point score. I know a number of friends who work abroad (and who previously studied abroad). Each one loves (loved) their arrangement. For me, I still am not sure if I could cut it as an expat. I do love exploring new countries and cultures, but I don’t know if I work in these new environments for extended periods of time.

  I found the added blog post on “To Localize or Not, That’s the Question” especially interesting. It played well on my background as a tax accountant when it discussed the U.S. China tax treaty and other income tax implications.

  If we get the opportunity to ask expats in China questions, I have a few I would like to ask:

  - Do you plan on spending your entire career as an expat?

  - Following this position, do you see yourself returning to your home country or to different country to remain an expat?

  - Do you feel you are more successful as a result of being an expat?

• 24. Tim Easton  |  February 15th, 2011 at 8:36 pm

  According to the survey I should GO FOR IT! I scored a 43, only missing points on the family question and the savings question. I am not surprised by this answer because working abroad is something that I really want to do in the near future. When I was applying for jobs during/after undergrad I applied to many jobs overseas mainly in Europe, South America, and China. I would love to end up back in California later on in life, but now I want to go and experience new cultures and different ways of life. I really liked question 13 on the survey, “When I find myself in a less than ideal situation”. I answered A “I am always willing to compromise to make the best of a situation” for this question. When backpacking through Europe I had to sleep in the parking lot outside an airport because my friend and I got there after they locked the doors and we had an early flight the next morning. It obviously wasn’t ideal but we both made the best of the situation. The interview with Ben was extremely helpful and answered a lot of the questions that I had. I was always curious about obtaining a visa, or work permit, and how difficult this process is. The fact that his answer was “taxing” is helpful because if you are determined to work in China then it is possible. I would also like to learn the local language of wherever I end up working, so it was really cool that Ben was able to learn Chinese during his time. This was a great post that got me excited about finding a job overseas.

• 25. Robbin Forsyth  |  February 18th, 2011 at 7:32 am

  I scored a 38 on the test and that makes sense. As I have written about before, I have studied in Germany and traveled throughout Asia and Europe. These experiences have been some of the best in my life.
  The most important thing to me is finding the right working opportunity. Location will be second. China is an obvious center point to begin looking for opportunities. That excites me in some ways and terrifies me in others. But maybe that’s the point, right?
  Five years ago I realized that I was stagnant and unhappy with my place in life. I left my previous life behind, literally. I left my well paying job, I sold my houses and pursued reinvention through education and life experiences. Travel and studying aboard were important parts of this growth experience. The MBA at Cal Poly will be the capstone on this chapter. If the last five years have taught me anything it is that I enjoy change and little bit of chaos. I can envision myself living someplace new every few years just to keep stimulated.
  I think good questions for any experienced expat would be:
  1- Would you do it again?
  2- What preconceptions did you bring that might have actually handicapped you in the beginning?
  3- Would you make this change to another foreign culture after your first experience?

• 26. Jessica Shayler  |  February 18th, 2011 at 10:26 am

  From Ben’s Interview: “Go with an open mind. Don’t expect anything or take anything for granted. If you stick to this, everything else will come much easier.”

  I would venture to say this statement applies to life in general. I obviously have my interests and ideas of what I would and would not like to do in and with my life, but I have always tried to avoid specific detailed plans. Life holds surprises. If these surprises are contrary to your plan, you tend to be more dissatisfied and take longer to adjust. I don’t like being unhappy. So by avoiding long-term detailed plans and expectations, I find I am able to accept the hand dealt to me and appreciate what it has to offer as is. I know how good I have it right now and I am thankful everyday for the opportunity to experience the central coast and the people in my life right now. But when this changes (as tends to happen), I know I can move forward and find something new to appreciate and learn from - whether this happens in another city, state, or country I couldn’t tell you, but I am excited to find out….

  That said, I would ask expatriates the following:
  1) In what ways are you a different person now than before your work abroad?
  2) Do you feel you have grown as a person in positive ways?
  3) Are there any changes you are not satisfied with? Why?

• 27. Will Moeller  |  February 18th, 2011 at 7:02 pm

  This is a great topic for MBA students to be thinking about. Good sources, good opinions here.

  In terms of questions for the expats, two come to mind:

  - What were the biggest pleasant and unpleasant surprisea about living here? It seems like there’s always at least one great pleasant surprise and one frustrating surprise when being abroad. Knowing and anticipating what to expect certainly helps.

  - What was the best thing you’ve done to assimilate yourself with the community?

  I scored a 31 on the working self test. Safe to say, I remain open-minded about the possibility of working abroad in the future. In an American business culture that will be more geared toward doing business with China, having the knowledge base of China that we’re building is a huge advantage.

• 28. Sarah Weinzapfel  |  February 20th, 2011 at 11:46 am

  I especially liked this blog topic because, while I still have plenty of reservations about living somewhere as different as China, it continues to challenge my initial position on this topic. The more I read about the differences and about people who have made this change, I realize that it is more of a possibility than not. However, that kind of change is not for everyone. But it’s sort of like cutting your hair; if you don’t like it, it’ll grow back.

  I scored a 32 on the questionnaire. I think that’s a legitimate description of how I feel about moving to a different country. If I really wanted to do something different, I would have some trouble, but could definitely pull it off. Ben’s blog made me think of Eli Sweet, our rapper in China. Both amaze me with their desire to just do something completely different (not Europe). And I guess not their desire per se, but the guts they have..because honestly, I can say I’d love to experience something like that all I want, but at the end of the day, at least today, I don’t know that I could.

  Finally, all of the answers to the questions about are something I’d be curious to find out, but some of my own questions would include:

  -What made you choose China? And how did you decide exactly where you were going to live?
  -What do you like there better than you like about your home country?
  -Was it hard learning the language? How long did it take?
  -How does health insurance compare?
  -Do you have children and how has the change effected them? Are you happy with the education they are receiving?

• 29. Kristine Spencer  |  February 21st, 2011 at 2:46 pm

  I enjoyed reading Ben’s Blog, and I appreciated his openness and effort to learn the language and experience China. I poked around on his blog and saw a post called “4th of July and Michael Jackson.” I hope that we can all experience something like that post in a karaoke bar and learn how the Chinese think of us, not just what we think of China.

  I scored a 32 on the quiz, which fell in the “You may encounter some difficulty, but you will probably succeed” category. I feel that I have traveled extensively, but always in safe and somewhat expected locations. And even when I traveled I always made sure to plan extensively, so I never really threw myself out there completely (except when I slept in an airports, but that was planned because my flights were so early) like an expat would have to deal with.

  The packages and all the considerations of being an expat are extremely complicated. Not only do you need to align the goals and compensation of the expat, but also the company, the home country, and the country in which the expat works. Expatriation can be extremely hard on the families. Imagine being the wife or husband of someone who is guaranteed a job…but you are stuck in another country, away from friends and family, and will probably not find a similar/equivalent job for the long time you are there. I believe that family/spouse issues are a leading cause to failed expat positions, and I can understand why.

  I would like to ask the expats:
  - How did their significant others and/or children react and deal with moving to another country, and what did their company do to make their stay more comfortable?

  -How did being an expat change your perceptions and expectations on doing business both globally and with Americans?

• 30. Randy Camat  |  February 25th, 2011 at 10:39 pm

  According to the questionnaire on the What it Takes to Live and Work Abroad post, I “may encounter some difficulty, but will probably succeed.” Considering the fact that I moved to a different apartment every year in college and being the more independent child in my family, I was not surprised that I filled up the second tier. Just one more point and I would have had what it takes! I never really thought about living and working abroad. I have an uncle that works for the government and he keeps asking me if I’m interested in working for the government. Everything he told me sounded really enticing – great pay, allowances, benefits, etc. – UNTIL he said I would have to be willing to go overseas for a couple of years. I’m not sure if I’m too WILLING to go abroad. Going to a different country that has a different culture and especially one that speaks a different language is a bit scary. I may be thinking of the worst things that can happen, but hey, it can still happen. However, after taking the survey, I feel more confident about the idea of working abroad. After going through my first mentoring session, this topic came up and I realized how apprehensive I was in venturing off to some far away place not because I was so much scared, but because I would be too far from my family. As we all know, family is a major component in the Asian culture, and this time around it would take a long plane ride home instead of a quick two-hour drive. Who knows what will happen. A question I would ask would be: “How did you cope being away from family?”

• 31. Ashley Ogden  |  February 26th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

  It would be great to get a chance to talk to ex-pats in China. There are so many questions I would like to ask.

  -What was/is the hardest thing you had to give up?
  -What is the best thing that you gained from being an ex-pat?

  I scored a 31 on the questionnaire test. I believe that if I decided I wanted to move abroad, I could do it, but there would definitely be obstacles just as the test said. There is so much of the world to explore that it would be a shame to not take advantage of as many opportunities to travel (even live) abroad. The important thing to remember is that nothing is permanent. If a company asked me to move abroad, it would be a hard transition, but I would definitely consider it. It would be a great learning experience if nothing else.

• 32. Tyler Sereno  |  February 28th, 2011 at 7:18 pm

  My score from the questionairre indicated that I may encounter some difficulty, but will probably succeed if living and working abroad. The questionairre really put things into perspective and made be consider what it would be like to move aborad. I have never studied or lived abroad before, but I have always been independent. I am close to my family, but I have always preferred to live on my own. I have always been able to accomplish things that I completely dedicate myself to. And I feel that I would be able to be successful abroad. The trip to China is going to be a great experience and test for me.

  I think it would be great to meet and talk to expats during our time in China. The information provided in the last blog post listed was interesting. It explained the process of discussing whether or not to work abroad with your employer. There were things to consider when making a plan to go abroad that are useful for future reference.

• 33. Amanda Podesta  |  March 3rd, 2011 at 1:35 am

  I scored a 38 on the questionnaire. I am not surprised (… or I’m just that overly confident?). I am a dual citizen with lots of family living all over, I love travelling, and I have spent time living around different parts of America and Europe. I would be keen to work abroad if I believed that opportunities were significantly better than what was available domestically.

  Some questions I’d have for expats about their experience in China:
  1. How long did it take to get fully “situated” in China?
  2. How long was it until you felt that China was home?
  3. What was the biggest culture difference between living in China versus USA?
  4. Would you generally say that the “system/bureaucracy” is supportive of expats?

• 34. Anthony Kallioinen  |  March 5th, 2011 at 12:19 am

  I like the Ben’s Blog post, I really hit the nail on the head that the best way to learn is to shut up and listen. You must simply observe and ask questions, repeat. What I must learn is to do this in a more active way. What I mean by this is that sometimes I find myself receding into the background too often. I must take a more active approach in my learning. I have started something recently, a form of networking, where I ask people I respect and admire out to coffee for a friendly informational interview. I feel that these people must be doing something right, and if I can understand how they think about the world then I can apply it to my life. I find that they often want me to share as well and although I oblige, I feel that the learning is too one way for me to help them.

  I hope that I can improve this skill, especially with people from other countries. I did this several times when I was abroad; mostly learning about how Italians see the world and what how their culture dictates their lives in such a different way than ours does.

  If I were to ask questions of an expat living in China, I would be curious on a couple things:
  1) Are you the subject of ridicule/admiration - basically how do the locals treat you?

  2) How long was it before you were able to speak Mandarin? I’ve heard that tonal languages are difficult for people that are not used to the language structure. Suggestions on learning the language?

  3) What is the biggest misconception you had about China that was dispelled?

  4) What is the biggest misconception that the Chinese have of Americans that was the hardest for you to dispel?

  5) What are some of the most important things you would tell a foreign traveler (short or long term stay) that are not mainstream tips, something that most people wouldn’t think of or have heard about?

  P.S. I scored a 31 on the questionnaire.

• 35. Tara Millard  |  March 5th, 2011 at 9:43 pm

  I found that survey extremely interesting and would love the opportunity to discuss life and career potentials with an ex-pat. While I have no intention or desire to live and work abroad, the survey results concluded that I would be a good candidate to give it a go. I believe I would achieve success, but I would do so at the expense of my strong family ties, and I am not willing make that sacrifice.

  I would like to ask an ex-pat about their experience and transition in moving to China.

  Although most people bring their immediate families, I would like to know the level of difficulty associated with leaving aging parents behind.

  I would like to ask them whether it was a smooth transition that occurred naturally or whether it was a difficult move that took much time to adjust to. If so, how long did it take until China was a place you felt comfortable and at home?

  I would also like to know the life their children are experiencing in China. Do they face difficulty in school due to being American? Are they bilingual in English and Mandarin?

  I would also like to know how their life has changed in China. What pastimes do they engage in as a family or an individual that are unique from how they previously spent free time?

  Finally, I would like to ask if they feel that the level of safety in their current residence in China is better or worse that they experienced in the United States. Are their kids allowed to walk to school, ride bikes etc.?

  Overall, I look forward to this meeting and am curious to see the direction this conversation will take.

• 36. j hurley  |  March 5th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

  There’s a couple questions that I would be interested in asking:

  At what age did you make up your mind to go for it? Was this a good age/time period to make the transition?
  What were some of the most difficult things that you had to overcome/change to make it work for you.
  Would you do it again, would you go somewhere else and why

  Everyone is different, so it is difficult to answer such a life changing question based on others answers. I scored just under 35 on the questionnaire, so I guess this means if I am given the opportunity I have to do it…

• 37. Ben Raymond  |  March 9th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

  This is a great post. Good all around discussion and sharing of opinions.The articles did a good job covering the business side of working abroad. Some of the requests when negotiating aspects of the transition I probably wouldn’t have thought of. It was nice to hear a first hand account of someones experience as an expat. I have always considered looking for work abroad. According to the questionnaire I should go for it. I would love to get the chance to question some expats. I would ask them some version of the following:

  If you had to do it all over again would you? And what would you do differently?

  What would be your advice to a recent MBA grad looking to go abroad?

  How have your family relationships fared?

  What were your biggest challenges?

  Would would have made the transition easier?

  Do you wish you had done it at a different time in your life?

  Hopefully we do get to sit down with some expats and question them on their experiences. I think we would learn a lot.

• 38. Kyle R.  |  March 11th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

  I scored a 41 on the online questionnaire, which suggests that I should go for it. However, I don’t think I have what it takes to move to another country anytime in the near future. The questionnaire doesn’t take into account friends, weather, hobbies, taxes, and daily quality of life. The unmentioned factors would weigh heavily on my decision to become an expat in another country. I thoroughly enjoy my lifestyle here on the central coast, and I feel it would be hard to replicate. Currently, I believe that I could do a temporary stay in another country… just for the adventure of it, but anything long term doesn’t sound appealing right now. I have a lot of respect for people who can pack up everything and leave their home country. It has to take so much courage to completely start a new life in another country. In regards to meeting with expats during our China trip, I would just like to hear their perspective on making that pivotal decision. I would like to hear their responses to all the questions listed in the blog along with the ones suggested by fellow students. I can only imagine the opportunity that exists for those willing to make the decision to go for it.

• 39. Matt Streiter  |  March 12th, 2011 at 4:15 pm

  - Looking back what could you have done better in preparation to be an expat?

  - What do you think the American education systems should do to better prepare students for doing business internationally now that you have lived as an expat?

  -What are the major obstacles you have experienced?

  - What type of people do you think are cut out for the challenge of doing business abroad?

  I personally would rather not travel overseas to do business but I think if I was in the situation I could be successful at it. According to the survey I may have some difficulty but most likely will come out successful. I got a 30. Most of the questions that deducted points of the maximum were due to my preference of sticking to what I know. I am not much of the adventurous type and not usually excited to try new things. It will be very informative to speak with expats to see their personalities and hear their life journey.

• 40. J Vail  |  March 14th, 2011 at 12:34 pm

  This post was greatly enhanced by the dialogue that went on in the first 12 user comments which highlight how complex some of these issues are. I definitely share the sentiment about how it is important to get out and experience things (which is exactly why I left for California from Connecticut). Just like the readings show that the best way to understand Chinese culture is immersion, I think that the best way to learn about the transition abroad would be through talking to expats. I don’t know if I would actually want to live long-term somewhere outside of the US, but I would like in the future to spend at least a few years out of the country (and in turn would probably appreciate it more when I got back).

  I got a 37 on the survey, so apparently I have what it takes! The survey was pretty simple however, so I do concede that I am an easy-going, adaptable person, but I am not entirely sure I’d be ready to dive into another culture alone…

• 41. Chris F.  |  March 17th, 2011 at 3:09 pm

  Having taken the survey, I am just barely in the “Go for it! You have what it takes” category (score of 34 plus a 3 point bonus = 37); but I would err on the conservative side and say that while I could do it, I’ll definitely have to work on fitting in. Now, if I had the chance to talk to some expats I would probably ask the following:

  1. How has your experience living with the Chinese and under the Chinese government compare to the impression at home that the Chinese should be viewed warily as a rival?
  2. Do you consider China your home or a second home?
  3. If you could change something about living in China, what would it be?
  4. How was overcoming the language barrier to get basic necessities such as grocery shopping, directions, shopping, etc? How are these things different than living in your home country?
  5. Impressions and experience living in a “Communist” society?

  I have stated in other blogs that I never really considered moving, living and working in a foreign country, but I would not be against the idea if an opportunity came around for me to do so. I have the ability to adapt to different countries and learn about cultures with an open mind (I guess my foreign travels alone are testament to that), so a move to living abroad might be a logical next choice? We shall see what cards are dealt to me in the future.

• 42. JP Salazar  |  March 18th, 2011 at 12:09 am

  Working in another country is something that I have always been interested in. I have always enjoyed experiencing different places and cultures. I also consider myself rather independent and self-sustainable. I was not surprised that I scored a 36 on the TransitionsAbroad.com survey. While I had originally only considered working in Europe, the prospects and opportunities in China I have been exposed to during the course of this program have begun to peek my interest. At this stage in my life I am starting to think about how my future family will play into the possibility of working abroad. I have no qualms about relocating as long as I am able to go home to my family at night. With this in mind, I would seriously consider any job opportunity, even if I meant becoming and expat.
  I enjoyed Ben’s blog and interview. The main message I took away from this is took keep an open mind. It is important to not let your preconceived notions get in the way. The best way to experience a new place is to sit back and soak it in instead of trying to fit it into your ideas about what it should be like.
  I am actually lucky enough to know a former student of this program who, after his graduation almost 3 years ago, took a job with an American company that did business in China and lived there up until recently. He had some great stories and said he really enjoyed the time he spent there. He is actively pursuing trying to convince the company he works for to transfer him back to China, and with any luck, he hopes to be back in Beijing at the same time we will be there.
  I would really enjoy being able to meet some expats and discuss some issues with them. I would be most interested in getting a better understanding of how easy/difficult the transition was for them, especially if they had a family.

• 43. Omar Pradhan  |  March 18th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

  Some questions I might ask: What are the top 3 qualities of a successful international manager? When did you realize you had the right stuff for China? How did you cultivate your global qualities (e.g. growing up adventurous on your own or on family trips…while adventuring, did you have an insatiable willingness to learn, explore, wander…)? What minimum skills would you recommend for someone looking to follow in your footsteps and enjoy similar success (e.g. critical thinking, social / cultural perceptiveness, judgment, perseverance, etc.)? How important has it been to your success that you understood history and culture? What funny stories might you be willing to share about some of your “tough” cultural lessons learned? How would you respond to the following comments made by a Midwesterner who lived in Fuzhou recently for three years: (commenting on the negative aspects) “noise, low sanitation standards, awful popular music, lack of grass and trees, pollution, big crowds, warm beer, spitting, blaring televisions, and lack of respect of privacy and personal space” - do any of these issues resonate with your experiences? Questionnaire results: 1d, 2a, 3a, 4a, 5a, 6b, 7b, 8a, 9a, 10c, 11a, 12a, 13b, 14a, 15a, Bonus a0, b0, c0, d3. Total:40! As for my thoughts on the “To Localize or Not…” article, I certainly found it useful. It will be something to keep in mind when salary negotiations take place. The key will be to run the numbers and affirm that the company is willing to provide me with “reasonable and competitive” compensation…commensurate with my knowledge, skills and abilities AND taking into account all pertinent tax treatments.

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