33 Comments Add your own

• 1. David  |  April 29th, 2007 at 1:32 am

  Chris,
  Great post. I’ve been using it in my classes at Macau University of Science and Technology to give my students some ideas about differences in cost of living. When I show them the 50,000 USD salary, many of them get wide-eyed…until they see how much is left. The article also gives us a chance to talk about different standards of living and even little things like health insurance, tips, and sales tax. Thanks for a really useful discussion tool.

• 2. Chris Carr  |  April 29th, 2007 at 6:57 am

  David,

  Thanks for checking in. I am happy you can find this material helpful.

  We will see you in Macau in June??

• 3. David DeGeest  |  October 13th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

  Hi Chris.

  I wanted to tell you that recently, I was teaching my students at a major western firm here in southern China. These are bright folks: all of them hold master’s degrees from good universities in China, and they do software engineering, program design, industrial and mechanical engineering, etc.

  I brought a copy of your “quality of life” article to class for discussion. They could not stop talking about it. We spent all of our 2-hour class talking about the issues it raised, the questions of standards of living it brought up, and about China and the US’s different measures of quality of life.

  Honestly, when I asked the group, their opinions were decidedly mixed: some really, genuinely believed they would have a better quality of life in the US. Others staunchly argued against it. Proponents of China noted that they could easily have a higher standard of living in China because of their connections here and because they knew how to get things quickly, cheaply, and easily that would otherwise be prohibitively expensive in the US. Proponents of the US pointed out that they would have access to all sorts of things they just can’t get easily in China: a wider selection of entertainment goods such English movies and TV, a much larger disposable income, a cleaner environment, and access to popular sporting events like basketball games.

  Perhaps the most interesting subject that came up was friendship. We talked about the differences between friendship in the US and friendship in China, specifically how this affects quality of life. I pointed out that since most Americans move around a lot during their life, friendships often come and go, and you add and subtract them as you move. While I might have been extremely close to someone five years ago, I may no longer be close with them when we are no longer living in different cities. Similarly, I may strike up a conversation with a relative stranger, and he or she may, in a matter of months, become an extremely intimate friend.

  On the other hand, in China, your friends are much more closely knit. Once you are friends, you STAY friends for life, despite moving, despite changes in life circumstance, despite other individuals entering your life. I know a man and former business connection who, every year, takes a two-day train ride to Beijing to meet with his friends from middle school school and maintains an incredible friendship with these people despite their enormous distance from each other.

  I asked my students which one was better: having friends come in and out of your life as you live, or having one close set of friends your entire life?

  With one exception, the entire group agreed that the second was far superior.

  The woman who disagreed was from northeast China and had undoubtedly moved the farthest to come here to southern China. She was also the only woman in the group. But it was really interesting to hear her opinion and talk about how by moving around, she had gained friends and was still able to keep in touch with all of her old friends via Facebook, email, Skype, and other online tools. At the same time, she has also done a fantastic job of finding new friends here in Guangzhou.

  In other words, a really fascinating and vivid discussion about quality of life came out of your article by an articulate and very well-educated group of people who live in China and have a strong opinion about life and culture in the West.

  Thanks for the help.

  David

• 4. Chris Carr  |  October 14th, 2007 at 7:49 am

  Hi David.

  Thanks for the check in. Always good to hear from you!

• 5. Simeon Trieu  |  February 21st, 2008 at 12:09 am

  I’m biased when I make this post. I do desire to become an expat in China and live there for life. However, I did have to take these quality of life issues into consideration. When all is said and done, I agree that the quality of life, in terms of living comfortably, is better in California than in China. There are many factors that go into this, and it’s not just the money. A partial list of these factors are:

  - Salary
  - Weather
  - Public transportation
  - Pollution levels
  - Culture
  - Food
  - Fashion
  - Availability of fresh produce
  - Water
  - Heated water (Can’t imagine not having this!)
  - Water pollution levels
  - Traffic
  - Job availability
  - Job retention rate
  - Technological advancement
  - Internet availability
  - Telephone availability
  - Mobile phone coverage
  - Community events and involvement
  - National pride
  - Cultural norms
  - Sports
  - Banks and financial systems
  - Politics
  - Tax rates
  - Ownership rights
  - Land and building availability
  - Population density
  - Spoken language
  - Variation of dialects/accents
  - % of country that is urbanized
  - Governmental structure
  - Level of democratic involvement
  - Freedom of speech
  - Freedom of the press
  - School systems
  - Family and child support
  - Relationships with people and family members
  - Divorce rates
  - Stress levels
  - Pace of life

  … and the list goes on. What is the right mix for you? Who knows. That is up to you to decide. America fits a certain kind of individual. Each country has their own norms, systems, and cultures. And what becomes more interesting is the sub-divisions in country, where national norms, systems, and cultures blend in varying quantities with other regional norms, systems, and cultures. First know yourself, then know where you want to be. Quality of life is really a scale of happiness with your life. Since what makes people happy is relative, so also, is quality of life.

• 6. Morgan O'Hara  |  December 21st, 2008 at 9:54 pm

  I lived in a poor town in Mexico. I’m pretty Spartan by nature, too. In my pad, I had a mattress on the floor, a few plastic chairs, a table and my laptop. No hot water showers – had to heat the water up in a big saucepan on a hotplate. That took 10 minutes. But I often didn’t wake up early enough to do that during the week. And it was cold in the mornings. Nothing gets the cobwebs out like a cold shower.

  Back here, do I cherish my hot water showers? I do if I remind myself of where I was three years back. But my experience in Mexico was not diminished because of the cold water showers, or the poor shopping, or the dearth of decent restaurants. All those luxuries that I gave up, I gained in some other way.

  Spartan as that apartment was, it had the nicest balcony. Come weekends my friends and I would sit on our plastic chairs on the balcony, some tunes from my laptop in the background, and we’d sip on beers all day and joke with each other and chat with passersby in the street. And life was great.

  The quality of life I hope to one day attain will be a result of my life’s experiences. And it will be more of a mental condition than a material one. That being said, I’m not going back to cold showers.

• 7. Amanda Podesta  |  December 19th, 2010 at 6:48 am

  About two years ago, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger was touring California and arrived at the Nevada border. He offered to cover the cost for any out-of-state business to move – not one company took him up on his offer.
  On the other hand, the Golden State has the eighth largest economy in the world and the greatest share of America’s millionaires. It seems like California has always been the best and the worst state to make money.

• 8. David Hart  |  January 10th, 2011 at 4:26 pm

  There is something to be said for “simplifying” one’s life. With today’s high-paced society, it is sometime difficult to find time to reflect on what matters most. Professor Coget did a nice job of teaching that it is important to take the time to reflect on yourself and others.

  Several years ago, someone I know told me of one of his friends in China. His friend was married with a child. When the Chinese couple came to visit the states, the couple shared their salary information with him. He then asked the couple how much it cost them to put their child in day care. The cost of putting the child in day care was the same as the wife’s salary! He asked her if she worked because she wanted to have the change of pace. She told him that she had never really considered that all of her wages were going to day care. It was an eye opener to her. Sometimes it is important for us to step back and evaluate which direction we are going in.

  Each person will have different priorities. For some, moving to a place like China will fulfill their needs. For others, they may need to move to a place close to family. The important thing is for each person to reflect on their choices and the long-term impacts their decisions will have.

  I have spoken with friends from other countries who do not understand the high-paced modern American lifestyle. One particular person I spoke with said he would rather have fewer material possessions and more time with family and friends. Looking at our overall lifestyle is important.

  There is something to be said about working hard to have success. America has been built on the backs of the principle of hard work. People from all walks of life believe they can accomplish great things if they simply work hard. This is a great principle. However, it is important for us to take the time to make sure we are not only working hard, but also expending our energy wisely.

• 9. Katie Moeller  |  January 11th, 2011 at 6:01 pm

  I think I could go on and on about this post. I would have to say I have a good sense of quality of life. I pride myself on it and I probably look cheap doing so too. I don’t care. I was able to take a voluntary severance from Best Buy and not work for over a year because I saved money throughout my career. I left BBY because the salary wasn’t worth it. I’ll take personal sacrifices to make myself happy. The latest clothes, cars, and trends are not worth it. I think so many people are way in debt because they have a show to put on. Why try and live like this? I have friends who say, live in the now, spend the money. Well, that’s not going to get you anywhere except paying high interest rates on a massive amount of debt. I’ve seen too many people deal with this and it’s not worth it.

  I have lived in California now for 1.5 years and it’s been great. I don’t plan on spending my life here, my husband and I will be moving back to Minnesota. We will be able to afford a house, find great jobs, and be happy. I think California can offer us great jobs but not sure about the house or happiness. I think the American lifestyle is tough to keep up with so I can see how a life in China would be appealing. Based on Ben’s Blog from the “Living and Working Abroad” blog, one can earn a high salary, get a maid, and rely on taxi transportation. I think the language barrier (at first), air quality, and being away from family would be difficult. So I would lean towards the American quality of life. But, I can see that there are plenty of opportunities abroad.

• 10. Dan N  |  January 13th, 2011 at 10:14 am

  A funny thing happens every time I step off an airplane at LAX or SFO after spending at least a month overseas. For a couple of days afterwards, I am disgusted by the way Americans live - rat race and all - and want nothing more then to hug and kiss my loved ones and jump back on the plane I came in on. Of course that feeling fades over time as I rejoin the ranks and readopt the same aspirations that most Americans embrace.

  Over the years I’ve had the opportunity to live - not just visit - in Fiji, Thailand, and Singapore. I’ve spent at least a month in these places working, eating, and playing as if I were going to be there for the rest of my life. I personally feel that quality of life overseas is every bit as good as it is here. What has caused me to come back to California every time and what remains a barrier to a permanent move overseas has to do with how being overseas requires changes in values that I have, thus far, been unable to make.

  I think that the problem that expats face - whether Americans in China or vice versa - is that they’ve been conditioned to value certain things by their society and they have to overcome their conditioned worldviews if they are going to be at peace with what life in another society has to offer. For example, one way all Americans express themselves is through the cars that we drive. Whether we perceive ourselves as successful, powerful, environmentally responsible, or thrifty, we depend on our cars to communicate who we are to those around us. In every other place I’ve visited, citizens don’t have the option of treating automobiles like accessories. So the question is, are we secure enough give up this method of expressing ourselves?

• 11. Chris Bruns  |  January 21st, 2011 at 8:09 pm

  There were several points I disagree with and I’ll try to some it up briefly. First of all, the ‘rat race’ is what you make it, if you don’t like your situation, change it or your outlook. But everyone needs to work and pay bills, nothing new. The question is, do you grind and grind and work is all that consumes you, which is a personal problem, not a location problem. The second disagreement was with the budget, which was really out there from my point of view, and I can show you mine and exactly what I spend every dollar on for the last 2 years. The budget is a very ‘consumer’ point of view, and the many of the expenses can be avoided or drastically reduced. I personally have avoided anything resembling a rat race, traveled the world on my own dime, continue to live in CA, and work jobs that I have chosen to fit my style of living. Additionally, CA is a big place, and I can easily go home, buy a house for $80,000, work in Sacramento with a 40 min commute and live comfortably on less then $40,000. I guess my point is this, when it comes to how I live, working and grinding and saving for 20 years to buy a tea house and start to live low key and low expense life is the definition of a rat race life. But I also turned down a 6 figure promotion because I’d rather farm.

• 12. Cassie Bettencourt  |  January 28th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

  I thought that using dollar examples in the above posts made this thought experiment very real. It is hard to generalize California numbers to the entire United States, however, because like Amanda said, California has the eighth largest economy in the world. The WSJ article also is relevant to this point. The bottom lines were interesting—$450 in China will get you a heck of a lot further than $700 in California. The $450 will almost pay all of your taxes in China compared to the $700 not even coming close to the $16,000 in the U.S. That really put things into perspective for me. As far as the Quality of LIfe Index is concerned, I thought that my answers to the first page of it would not be affected much whether I was from China or America but the second page most definitely would be.

  In response to the question of which country has the better quality of life, I have no other choice but to cop out and say that it depends. I believe it truly depends on the person and the circumstances of that individual. I am definitely somewhat driven by money, and that is one of the reasons why I am pursuing a higher education. Although the money is a driver, the actual ultimate goal is that I want to be comfortable and to be able to do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. I do not need to live in excess since that is not the type of person I am anyway, but I do want to be comfortable. I am also definitely driven by people and my relationships with them. I find the guanxi idea very interesting because of this. Opening a tea shop and living a low stress/low key life doesn’t sound half bad as long as you’re surrounded by the people you care about…which is what truly matters in life.

• 13. Brady Haug  |  February 2nd, 2011 at 10:09 pm

  The rough numbers mentioned in this post did come about as a surprise. The view through our stereotypical American lens continues to lead me to think that my equivalent in China would be making dramatically less. In addition to being an American citizen, I am also a Swiss citizen. I have briefly entertained the idea of moving to Switzerland and I would think that the numbers for my equivalent would be even higher. I clearly understand that this post is trying to inspire our thoughts in regard to the standards of living in China versus the US. In my opinion, there are other factors that should be accounted for such as the environment. I don’t quite think that the doctor doing you a favor can help your polluted lungs. I personally do place heavy values on being in close proximity to my family and to the coast. Some may think these are close minded values, but I also don’t think that numbers can equate the differences between lives in these places. So what country has a higher standard of living? I would say that presumably we do here in the United States, but I also would rather try and survive the rat race here in California.

  On a different note, the Wall Street Journal article particularly sparked my interest because Rancho Santa Margarita is where I previously worked. I was surprised that after ten years Kozlowski decided to move his business. Simply from living in Southern California for my entire life, I can attest to the absurdity of the housing market. A massive price tag is attached to your location. For someone who may be debating this same situation, I thought that he made a particularly good decision to switch an employee to a virtual one. This article lends some interesting insight into relocating a business.

• 14. Robbin Forsyth  |  February 7th, 2011 at 8:49 pm

  I am a bit different than most of my MBA class in that I have already “run the race” and experienced a very hectic, busy and money oriented first career. Six years ago at the age of 37 I retired from my first career and decided to reinvent myself through education and personal growth. Part of that experience was living in Europe for most of 2009. Going to school in Germany really helped me gain a better understanding of a balanced life. Living in small city that is accessible on foot or by inexpensive public transport forces you to be a part of the community. In California everyone sits alone in their cars… Most of the people I met in Germany actively planned balance in their lives. Simple things like going to the market every day to get fresh food or joining friends at the local beer garden for a night cap. In the US we load up at Costco with months worth of provisions and drive straight home. Maybe its age, but I now care more about my health and well being than material possessions.
  When I finish this MBA program I am looking forward to working again, but only on my terms. I will never commute to work again. I will ride a bike for daily transportation and drive only when necessary. I will never work in a position that I do not enjoy and I will never work for or around people that I do not enjoy being around. If this sounds too idealistic all I can say is you set standards too low for yourself. In my past working experience I have had more fun and made more money when I am doing something I enjoy than not. The quality of life in California can be amazing, but it does come at a price. I am a six generation Californian and I love and hate this place. I do not know that I get tired of hearing that California is too “this” of too “that”. Today was 75 degrees and sunny on February 9, 2011. If life is too expensive in the Golden State, then pack up the truck and tunnel a hole in the snow bank back to where you came from.
  On another note, I don’t buy the comparison of US$100 bill and RMB100 bill. This might be true in more rural parts of China, but in my experience in larger cities, (Panyu, Shanghai and Guangzhou) RMB$100 did not hold the same buying power as USD$100 in an American city such as San Francisco or Los Angeles.

• 15. Tim Easton  |  February 9th, 2011 at 10:17 pm

  I get the same exact feeling that Dan does every time I come back from a vacation overseas. I want to incorporate that lifestyle into my own, but it never seems to stick. I have very close family friends that are Swiss, and have spent a significant amount of time with them. I love the Swiss lifestyle, and their culture, and want to make that my own. I will make a few changes for a while, but then join back in the “rat race” that we are all a part of. Work or school starts to become a grind again, and the only things getting me through it are the values that most Americans have.
  It would be extremely difficult to give up my Southern California lifestyle, since being close to family and the ocean are important to me. The beach has always been that escape that allows me to get away from the hustle of everyday life. To not have that would be an extremely difficult obstacle to overcome wherever I move to.
  I also believe that the quality of life has to do with the values of your culture. In the United States we work hard to have a nice house, nice car, and be able to afford the things that we want. It would be hard for anyone to change these values when they move to a different country. The numbers that you presented on the cost of living in China were extremely shocking. If I were to move to China my lifestyle would be completely different, but I could still see myself becoming a victim of the daily grind. I would want to work hard to be able to have a nice apartment in China, and afford nice things. These are the same problems that I would have in Southern California, plus the fact that I don’t have my family or the ocean around. Overall, this is a great post that brings up some interesting points about the quality of life abroad.

• 16. Sarah Weinzapfel  |  February 10th, 2011 at 9:03 pm

  Okay I already talked a little bit about this post in another post, but I’ll try and add more here. I can’t agree with my classmates more. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It depends on what you value and what you’re willing to do to get it. If you work and work and work and have a lot of money, but never any time to enjoy it, then what’s the point. If that’s what you think is a high quality of life that you want, then fine. I don’t think I would want to live in a tea house and have that slow paced life style, but I also don’t need a mansion on the beach. I think as I get older and travel more and see other parts of the world and country, I’ll have a better idea of what I want my quality of life to include.

• 17. Jason Jay Sharma  |  February 14th, 2011 at 7:41 pm

  First of all, Jack (the guy who left a 300K salary) has lost all credibility in my eyes. If you’re making 300K a year, learn to manage your money and pay off your 18K in credit card debits instead of buying a four level townhouse with expensive furniture. Maybe this is just my financial background coming out, but I think the main underlying problem with the quality of life issue (here in California or the U.S.) is that young adults (or all adults for that matter) do not have a good grasp of financial management. If more people had this, I honestly think some of our views and your above post would have been much different. As an undergrad in the OCOB’s SAAC group, we would regularly visit the local elementary schools to help teach the basics of financial management to children while they were still young in school, hoping it would be beneficial for their future.

  The translated article on Xiao Nao was amazing. My main takeaway was that she still lived like a student (as I would picture it). As she mentions, she makes enough (1,00RMB) to survive only. If we apply her story to the quality of life breakdown from the above post, we can see that she might have a similar end result as her U.S. counterpart, but it seems much more of a challenge for her to get there. But it sounds like everything is fair game to negotiate in China, so Xiao could be getting some wonderful deals we didn’t read about. Then again, I might not truly understand the value she places in her “savings” at the end of the month. From my aspect, maybe I’m expecting to have $X,XXX,XXX saved up after so many years so I feel like I can slow down, while someone like Xiao may only need X,XXXRMB saved and she would feel she has the same end result.

  As for the American Dream, the last China Law Blog post doesn’t convince me that business men and women are looking to live the dream. Rather, they just want U.S. education, which we have already seen discussed many times as advanced of the Chinese (when it comes to university-level, anyway). I am personally friends with a few individuals whose mothers came to the U.S. while pregnant and purposely stayed until giving birth in order to obtain U.S. citizenship. After birth, they were either taken back to China or Hong Kong to be raised, and then sent to America in their high school years to complete the remainder of their education including college. From what I know half return home, while the other half remains. My friends didn’t even try to hide the fact that it was their parents’ plan all along. It’s very interesting to see the lengths parents are willing to go to.

  As for the quality of life in California versus China, I will say that our Chinese counterparts do arrive at a similar end product, but the means of arrival is the key issue. In California, if you live the lifestyle tied to your salary, you’ll be blowing your money and having a good time doing it. Three months out of Poly and working in Palo Alto, I once had a monthly credit card bill for $700–all of which was food. That’s Palo Alto lunches and dinners. That’s horrible, but I had a fun time eating and drinking that money away. For the Chinese, they have to negotiate their expenses and are probably not having the fancy meals I indulged in. And I highly doubt that my Chinese counterpart is spending their two week vacation flying to Europe. It’s all about the lifestyle, and I think that indicates the quality of life. Maybe I will be able to locate a highly paid position in China which will allow me more discretionary income, and in that case I can part-take in some more privileged activities, but until then I would choose to remain in California. For that reason and the rest I already mentioned, I would say California has a higher quality of life. (I will admit that my parents paid for my undergraduate education and my car, I did live at home before entering the MBA program to save money, and I was extremely lucky to find a job on the higher end of the pay scale after my undergrad. My views might me slightly skewed, but valid nonetheless.)

• 18. Jessica Shayler  |  February 18th, 2011 at 11:09 am

  From Morgan O’Hara, 2007: “And it will be more of a mental condition than a material one.”

  Out of everything we’ve said above, I feel this is the heart of the matter. Quality of life is more a state of mind than a state of being - kind of like happiness. Dan touched on this as well when he talked about being “at peace” with life in another society. When someone is at peace with their life (wherever they may be leading it), it means they have decided to be so, despite any reasons that exist to the contrary. This is one of my life goals and one of the most complicated to strive for. So many things can derail you such as the “daily rat-race.” Some things that I try to keep in mind as my life and career move forward are:
  ~ What are the things I am not willing to compromise?
  ~ Why are those things so important?
  ~ Learn to see the old and familiar with new eyes (just because you’ve experienced it (many times) before does not mean it is not valuable and worth appreciating).

  …and the list goes on. I am always surprised how much these kinds of thought exercises help me clarify what really matters (yes, it changes) and remain content with my life so far while striving to make it better.

• 19. Kristine Spencer  |  February 22nd, 2011 at 2:46 pm

  I have definitely heard my parents griping about how hard California is on the small business owner. I didn’t realize that the financials were that rough. It just goes to show how important investing, scrimping, and saving are from a young age. When I studied in Denmark, I thought the socialist system seemed great…until you realize that if any outsider wants to join the system, you have to pay into the system for seven years before you get any of the benefits. Seven years is a very high price to pay in one of the most expensive countries in the world, but the lifestyle was terrific. There are pros and cons to every place.

  I agree with a lot of the previous posts that described how much money could be saved by not living such a materialistic life. A lot of the money we spent is on things that are choices, such as eating out, traveling, buying drinks and other fun activities. Jack’s blog really made me have a wide spectrum of reactions. First I wanted to tell him to get a grip, but after a while I just felt like he was so pathetic, needed a therapist, and he probably felt a lot of “peer pressure” to be something different than what he was. Jack had all of the solutions to his problems in his hands; he obviously made enough money to manage his debt. But he also had the right and the choice to quit his job, be a rambling man, or live another style of live if that’s what he wanted. Either way, make the choice that is right for you and quit being such a baby. I couldn’t believe the extent of this guy’s self pity, so I clicked around his blog and saw that his last post was about how his mom was mean and he decided he wasn’t going to talk to her ever again, oh yeah and he’s getting a vasectomy for the principal of it…I guess it’s kind of easy for me to classify this guy as a post-industrial society whiner. Everything is so contrived.

  Of course we all want to be with our family. All of my immediate family lives in either Arroyo Grande or SLO, and my mom grew up in Lompoc while my dad was raised in Santa Maria. Even all of my sisters (who are old enough to go to college) have gone to Cal Poly! California is paradise to me, but I recognize that there is more than one paradise out there. These days, acceptable standards of living could be found or created in so many more places than ever before. This post definitely gives me something to think about during my job search.

• 20. Ashley Ogden  |  February 22nd, 2011 at 4:39 pm

  Since I grew up in Hawaii, I have always been used to the high cost of living. Things in Hawaii are just as expensive, if not more, than in California. This post is very interesting to me, because I have recently considering whether I will move home or not following graduation. Before reading this post I was trying to decide between Hawaii and California, but this post has opened my eyes to new possibilities. The idea of living abroad is really new to me. When I was an undergrad, I lived in Australia for a quarter, but never considered moving there permanently. I highly doubt that I will move outside of the US permanently but it is an interesting idea to consider. I can see the benefits of living abroad and the extra luxuries you would be able to afford. However, I am one of those fortune students who still has a lot of family alive and my family has lived in the same place for over 100 years. Is a little extra spending money worth giving up valuable time spent with family? Probably not for me, but I will be thinking about it on our trip abroad.

• 21. Jessie Wilkie  |  February 24th, 2011 at 9:20 am

  This post was very interesting and it did spur some thoughts. People are able to get more for their money in developing countries. But I believe it depends on how you qualify “Quality of Life”, which was touched on in this post as well. I use qualify and not quantify because I feel that quality of life has more of an emotional meaning to people. I would define quality of life as synonymous with happiness. I derive my happiness from feeling safe, secure, clean, being close to my family, being close to my history, and having good weather. Happiness, however, is always changing and it is different for everyone. Some people might define their happiness by money. I feel that those people might be more ready to move to China or India. Also, there are people who have family’s who have so much money that they could care less where they were so they would probably prefer to stay in more developed countries. So it’s more likely to be the people who come from less and value money more who are willing to make such drastic moves—this was also discussed in the post.

  I thought that Xiao Nao story was interesting. Although she lives cheaply in Shanghai, she seems rather sad if you ask me. This story made me think about the original blog post. The cost of transportation wasn’t factored in and instead a 0 was placed there. I think that this is a bad miscalculation because she said that her transportation costs more than 1/3 of her monthly rent. So transportation is a huge expense.

  I also thought that the quality of life index had some good questions, but when I scrolled down and saw that there wasn’t a way to calculate what all your answers would mean I got discouraged. I looked at the living wage calculator and I was disappointed to see that it says that Santa Cruz is more expensive than San Luis Obispo! I had better start saving up my money so that I can move up north. I think that I am actually going to bookmark this site so that I can play around with it later.

  The China Law Blog post “Go Ahead And Quote Me: $100 = 100 RMB” stirred up some thoughts. It is very important to understand how money is valued somewhere in order to negotiate well. If nice haircuts go for the equivalent of $1.00 there (meaning that people are fine paying and receiving that amount), and we are used to paying $10.00 for a cheap haircut here… Well we might think to ourselves that paying $10.00 for a nice haircut is still a steal. But it’s really more like paying someone at Fantastic Sam’s $100.00 for a haircut and thinking we’re still getting a deal… Hmmm…

  On a final note, I’ve thought about moving to India after working here for a handful of years. It would be great to buy some property in Kerala and retire young. Or if not to relocate my whole life to India then to buy some property there as a summer escape. But a closing thought…if everyone could afford to live anywhere where would people choose to live? Would that 97% turn into 100%??? I’m just saying…

• 22. Randy Camat  |  February 26th, 2011 at 12:42 pm

  I was faced with this question last summer as I had the opportunity to work for a local civil engineering firm. As I have mentioned in a couple of blogs, I have worked in the construction industry for several summer internships. Prior to working here in SLO, all I was accustomed to was the fast-paced lifestyle and the infamous traffic of southern California. I was glad to have the opportunity to experience both sides of my profession (engineering/design and construction). They have their pros and cons. Engineering offers flexible hours with less pay, and construction great pay with crappy hours. A big factor when I really thought about have a quality lifestyle was the amount of time I had outside of work to do whatever I wanted. This relates to (when I have a family) the flexibility I would have to go and support my kids. However, taking family out of the equation still leaves the amount of time I have to myself to do what I want – work out, go outdoors (without worrying about my health and air quality), and hang out with friends. After working in both industries, I realized how less stressed I was in the engineering field. It could have been the state of the economy in its slow down that made it this way, but in general, the design side is way less chilled out than the construction side. Don’t get me wrong, I did miss the hustle and bustle of So Cal and construction, but it did feel really good to finally experience the SLO life.

  We’ve all heard the saying “Work hard, play harder,” but is that really living? The way I see it is live to work (and play), not work to live (and play). I’m not exactly sure what I want in life yet, but for sure I would want to wake up in the morning excited about what is yet to come. If I can live to work no matter what my pay is, then I would be satisfied.

• 23. Will Moeller  |  February 27th, 2011 at 11:44 am

  This is a very interesting topic, mainly because everyone sees things a bit differently.

  First, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention the name Richard Florida. He has developed his own Quality of Life Index for the United States. Aside from the usual elements like heating degree or cooling degree days, it incorporates elements of the “creative class” - which factors in ideas like dollars spent by a community in support of the arts. San Luis Obispo is on his top 100 list for cities under 100,000 people.

  To me, a lot of things are relative. Unfortunately, we’re conditioned by what we see everyday. Americans see the lifestyles of other Americans. Minnesotans see the lifestyles of other Minnesotans. Californians see the lifestyles of other Californians. This is why it’s hard to look at quality of life much differently day in and day out. One thing I have done that I’d encourage others to try sometime is to volunteer in a developing country. My trip was to Guatemala for 10 days. I spent several days lugging bricks from one pile to another by hand. My reward at the end of the day was a cold shower (careful, don’t swallow any water!) and a peanut butter sandwich. Many volunteer/mission/habitat for humanity trips make you work harder than this. But, either way, if you’ve put in a full day’s labor in a developing country, you’ll probably get the idea of how great Americans have life very quickly.

  On that note, I’m interested to see how the working class has it in China. It’s hard to imagine what your quality of life would be in a certain place until you’re actually able to go there and see it firsthand.

  People will disagree on where their quality of life is best. Everyone runs the rat race differently. But one story that popped into my head while I was reading this was the Fisherman’s Parable. Call it cheesy, reject it as unlikely, but it has some basic human elements that make you smile. Unfortunately, I don’t know who to credit with this story, but it can be found here: http://mrmaloney.com/mr_maloney/SHSdocs/fish_tale.html

• 24. Tyler Sereno  |  March 1st, 2011 at 6:32 pm

  It is incredible to see the comparison between living in China and living in California with actual numbers. There seems to be a lot of advantages of living in China, but it is not quite that easy to say it is cheaper to live there so I’ll move there. It is shocking how expensive it is to live in California these days. And it is important to remain flexible and be willing to move to advance in your career. My brother just recently moved from San Diego to Colorado for a career change and it is costing him a lot less to live there. It is hard to say which has a better quality of life, China or California. There are benefits to each that make the decision difficult. I find it interesting how much less the costs of living in China are than living in California. A person cannot determine China’s quality of life after visiting there for two weeks. It would require an extended period of time living there to make a fair comparison to the quality of life in California. But it is really hard for people to leave California once they live here.

• 25. Anthony Kallioinen  |  March 5th, 2011 at 10:13 am

  The last post started to get to this topic. Ben mentioned in his blog that he was able to spend his ‘copious free time studying Tai Chi and Chinese cooking or picking up girls at the bar.’ He is also very aware that this is not how the average Chinese citizen lives, and he has decided to take a job in a barbershop, starting at the bottom to better understand the common citizen. (On a side note, I agree with Carr, I think Ben should write a book on the experience. One of my questions on the last blog (living and working abroad) was ‘What are some of the most important things you would tell a foreign traveler (short or long term stay) that are not mainstream tips, something that most people wouldn’t think of or have heard about?’ I think Ben would have some really good insight, and a fabulous answer, but maybe the book of his experiences would suffice). The point is that Ben’s post hints at how much lower the cost of living is in China, which is the reason so many people from China come to America for the education but return home to live and work.

  I am very aware that we pay a premium to live in California. The only way to really understand this is to travel/live in other parts of the world where their weather and culture is so much different than our health conscious/sunny everyday/casual California attitude. That being said, many people vacation here, and California is often where movies of opportunity are set; maybe this wouldn’t be a bad place to live/work if it could be afforded.

  I liked the break-down of the numbers, it turns out that the Chinese have about 4 times as much money (in buying power) left over after everything is said and done. I would question though the ability for a foreigner to develop the guanxi – relationships that make the Chinese life so much more affordable, at least in the short term. Most Americans will not have that ‘grad school friend’ or a ‘brother in law that works for the government.’ I’m sure this would skew the numbers, especially if this is a large part of why China is cheaper.

• 26. Tara Millard  |  March 5th, 2011 at 7:14 pm

  I found this post interesting, thought provoking and entertaining. All of the disclaimers that have to be thrown into this post by Professor Carr just goes to show how irrational some people can get when asked to compare ANYTHING to their beautiful Californian life. Also, comparing California to China cannot be confused with comparing the US to China. California has a grossly high standard for the people living here, whereas there are much more modest cities in say, the MidWest.

  I appreciate the fact that this post attempted to compare apples to apples, but I am not sure this is possible in two countries that are so different. I would say the quality of life has the potential to be equal but very different based upon the way things are valued in each country. As the post mentioned, it is essential in California to drive a nice car to impress your boss. That line is pretty much sums it up. California living is by no means modest whereas a humble life in China can be. In California, everything is about status: Having the biggest house, the best job, the nicest car etc. China doesn’t appear to place emphasis on these superficialities.

  It seems as though in both places, money controls you when you don’t have enough of it. Once a decent income is made on a regular basis, it appears that money falls out of the equation in China, where living comfortably and humbly is accepted and looked up to. In California, it is hard to say that money ever loses its hold. Even the richest of the rich keep working long and hard to make sure they can stay on top. Essentially, Californians are never satisfied, we always want more.

  A life in California may seem better based upon materialistic merit. I must admit that a humble life is China without the overbearing stresses of status is beginning to sound appealing.

• 27. j hurley  |  March 5th, 2011 at 10:05 pm

  At this stage in the game I really have no barriers holding me back on where I head in life. The financial numbers shown at the beginning of this post are really an eye opener. I realized that the salary difference was quite large, but had no idea that the cost of living expenses matched the differences.
  However, even though I know that either here or there I could live the same style life, it is very difficult to say that I would actually leave sunny California. How does it get any better than having mountains to one side, the ocean on the other and clean blue skies. I am not saying that I can not find a paradise like this in China, but I would have to make damn sure it was there before making the transition.

• 28. Ben Raymond  |  March 10th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

  This was an intriguing post to read. I have always known California was an expensive place to live but this really put it into perspective. I have been thinking about this issue a lot recently while considering possible work locations. Personally, I think the price of California is worth it. California to my knowledge is the only place in the world where you can go from the redwoods to the beaches to the mountains to the desert. There’s a reason people pay to live in California. I realize I probably have a bias being from California and having all of my family here. I plan to travel the world and see what else is out there before making judgments.

  I believe that quality of life is based just as much on internal factors as external ones. I come from a small town in northern California that is quite a bit different from the bustling cities and warm beaches of southern California. While the lifestyles in our community may not be as glamorous as our wealthy southern counterparts this has little affect on the quality of life. I would gladly make less money in order to live a less stressful life surrounded by beautiful scenery and the people I loved. Each person is going to have different qualities they look for but it is very important to know what makes you happy and how you can obtain your highest quality of life.

• 29. Kyle R.  |  March 12th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

  I feel that I have already expressed my feelings on this subject in my response to “Living and Working Abroad: Why Not?” I’m sure there are many benefit s and flaws depending on where someone chooses to live. Living here on the coast is great, but it has its flaws too. I hate the inflated real estate market here, but it sure is nice having a house by the beach. California taxes are another downfall of this location. If I move, it will be within the United States before considering to go abroad. With my wife and I established in our careers, the recent purchase of our house, and family not too far away, it will be tough to move. If I was 22 or 23 with no commitments, then I would definitely have a different take on those possibilities that exist elsewhere. I enjoyed the rough numbers that were presented in this post, because I’ve always wondered about salaries and the cost of living in China. Moving and working in China requires independence and courage, but for those who are willing to work hard I’m sure it can be enjoyable.

• 30. Matt Streiter  |  March 13th, 2011 at 7:23 pm

  During my undergrad I experience a first hand example of cost of living changes. After living in Souther California my whole life and then moving to Arizona I was shocked how much cheaper it was to live even taking in account the lower pay. It was not proportionate. So, needless to say I can see where people are coming from when they get tired of the high cost of living and decide to move, but leaving the country to live is probably not for me. I place more value in living where I grew up and with my family then living somewhere else where living is cheaper.

  The facts presented are interesting being that they do a direct comparison of costs in relation to both countries but there is also value in things that have no monetary value which can’t quite compared in a similar manner. That being said, I respect the blog for the point that is being made but there are other factors not being taken in account (i.e. one child policy in major cities, pollution (debatable), government trust, etc). I also thing depending on which side you are on and looking in there is a different perception.

  I admire some of the places my classmates have been to and the volunteer work they have done with less fortunate countries It would be interesting to see how much of an influence those experiences have on their lifestyle today. If no changes exist today was there a point in time when you got back that you cherished your lifestyle, and if so how long did it last?

• 31. J Vail  |  March 14th, 2011 at 12:33 pm

  I don’t think that we have a ‘better’ quality of life in California, just a more ‘familiar’ one. As long as you have access to and can afford certain things (shelter, jobs, healthcare, education, etc), I think more than anything else it becomes a matter of preference. If you were rustic, you could go live in a hut in the Yukon and be happy as a clam (as some people do) but it’s not for everyone.

  Personally, although I have usually enjoyed the finer things in life I don’t require a lot of disposable income to spend on personal belongings or entertainment to be content – what matters most to me is where I live and the people that I surround myself with, which is entirely subjective. I liked Chris’ post and I think I share the same sentiments about the budget prediction. Regardless, I see the moral of this blog, and if hypothetically I did feel ‘at home’ in China, Argentina, Italy, etc, I would take a pay cut to be there.

• 32. JP Salazar  |  March 18th, 2011 at 12:08 am

  What a great and contentious topic. This is such a subjective issue that it promotes some really different and outspoken opinions. Personally, I would like to think that there are things that are more important to me than money. Friends, family, and relationships in general are the things I use to judge my success in living. However, I would be lying to myself if I said that money is not important. While I don’t believe money can buy happiness, I know enough about myself to know that I feel a whole lot happier when I am sitting in front of my flat screen TV, buying a new piece of technology, or going out for a nice meal. I look to SLO to kind of illustrate this point. SLO was recently voted the happiest place in the country. People attributed the aesthetics, the location, and the weather as the primary reasons why this is. But they don’t really key into the fact that this is a very affluent population. While this might be the happiest place to live, it is also definitely one of the more expensive.
  Money lets you afford to live in a place with the weather, pollution levels, and recreational activities that you enjoy. While wealth is not the direct cause of your happiness, it definitely makes it easier to achieve. The problem that has become apparent in our culture is the idea that it is the acquiring of wealth, not the use of it, which leads to happiness. People now seem to live to work, rather than work to live. What is the point of having money if you can not take the time to enjoy it.
  I have spent my entire life living in California, so I have no real first hand experience about the different quality of living in places across the country, let alone around the world. What I have learned is that the cost of living here is incredibly expensive and as a result, wages are higher here to adjust for it. I have heard that once you move out of California it is almost impossible to afford to move back because of this difference in wages. Basically, it is possible to live at a much higher standard in places where the cost of living is low even if your wage is much lower than what you would make here. It is all relative.
  The thing I liked the most about this blog were the actual breakdown of the costs and benefits of living in California compared to living in a place like China. It really reinforces the point I was trying to make earlier. Your standard of living is relative to the cost of where you are located and what issues you value. Clearly it is possible to live quite a comfortable life in China making a fraction of what would be made here in California.

• 33. Omar Pradhan  |  March 18th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

  Ah…the elusive question of what it means to live the good life? Really great points raised in the blog and attendant articles. Each of us has our own definition of the good life and, thankfully, our founders were smart enough to codify various protections enabling each of us to broadly define our good life…within reasonable limits as expressed in our common law (e.g. my rights end where your rights begin). I personally have doubts about finding happiness in China. Yes, the cost of living in the US is steep (and the $1000 figure you cite for health care is now easily 4x and climbing)… But I certainly feel as though after having served in the military, studied our legal system and now immersed myself in appreciating the fundamentals of business…we have much to be proud of (perhaps this pride explains the 97% figure, although I too suspect that to be high)…and much work to do to build an even better future for our children and grandchildren. I have serious reservations about the pace and sustainability of what we commonly observe as “progress” in China. That is the point of this trip, in many ways, to figure whether my reservations are accurate or need adjustment. I certainly have high hopes for China, the US and all nations to improve fiscal order, strengthen democracy, social safety nets, education, consumer safety, etc. Lastly, I will be sure to keep in mind the sage advice of Jeremy Gordon; 100 RMB = $100 US conceptually speaking…

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