Baby, If You Look Good, You Play Good
February 25th, 2008
In another life I had buddies who always said, “Baby, if you look good you play good.” These guys spent more time primping their battle gear and hair than my daughter, but, they were right … they looked good, they in turn felt more confident, and they in turn played good.
Some of you have asked me about buying a suit in China because you want to look good. Below is an email excerpt from a trip alumni. We can talk more about this at one of our Spring meetings, if you wish. But for now, what are your business take-aways from the below? E.g., a number of your are taking negotiations now, but that is far from the only class the below ties into. (Please, please, please don’t say something silly and ethnocentric based on a sample size of one such as, “This just shows the Chinese are ruthless, cunning, dishonest and you can’t trust ‘em.” — the below, or something like it, also happens in the West, Asia, South America, Africa, etc. about a gizillion times a day.)
And sorry, Ladies, I don’t know of a good tailor in China who does ladies clothes. You are on your own.
>Chris,
Sorry about getting back to you. It was a very long week at work.
When XXXX and I went to the Pearl Street Market (I believe that is what it was called, it was on the business cards you handed out), we were accosted by sales people trying to sell us suits (this was on the bottom level of that giant indoor market). We began by looking at fabrics, all the while making sure to point out that suits were way too expensive for poor students to afford, and especially on our last day in China. The saleswoman (who I assume works for the fabric maker, and not the tailor) started at over $1,000 US. We laughed and she pointed out that these were custom made suits composed of very expensive Cashmere. She also pointed out that she had sold 3 suits for the same low price already that day.
XXXX and I balked and began looking at her competing neighbor’s line up. She came over and got us and cut her price in half. XXXX began to get more interested, but I being very frugal still had my reservations. Eventually XXXX and she agreed upon a price of about 1000 RMB’s for a suit. He gave her half as a downpayment and then began walking around contemplating a second suit.
Meanwhile, she went to work on selling me. Finally, we settled on 800 RMB, conditioned on the fact that I lie to XXX and tell him that I paid the same as he had. It was about 4 in the afternoon, I gave her 200 HK Dollars as downpayment, they took our measurements, and then we went on our way.
Then at midnight, a man who spoke very good English showed up at our hotel room. He had our suits ready, and we tried them on for the final fitting before he finished the hemming. He was pretty young, about our age and very professional about his business. I paid him about $20 American Dollars, and the rest in $HK (I didnt even have to exchange the money). He left and told us our suits would be ready when we woke up in the morning.
I have no idea if they make shirts or not, but i would assume so.
He was in the hotel room for maybe only 15 or 20 minutes, since he had done all of the work at his shop. His turn around time was from 4Pm to 7AM the next morning. So half that for one suit.
I dont know if he was the tailor the whole time or if he was just an assistant who did final measurements. I would have to look around and try to find my receipt somewhere to get his contact info. I know YYYY knows who he is because she said her dad buys suits from him, and pays about what XXXX paid.
I would think that he would be able to handle 15 suits at once, he is supposedly very popular in China. The Flight Attendant in America recognized my suit. I am not sure if he would just contract out to another shop though.
The best thing about it those is that apparently he keeps your measurements, so apparently if I ever find my receipt, I can email in an order.
Let me know if i can be any more help.
ZZZZ
Yeah, Baby. You look good, you play good.
Entry Filed under: Pre-Departure, Beijing, China
36 Comments Add your own
1. Steve Munio | March 10th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
I find it amusing that with all the incredible culture, monuments, historical architecture, artwork, food, etc. to see in China, many men I’ve talked to coming on this trip are most looking forward to these cheap suits. Of course we are all itching to negotiate an incredibly low price as well. I’ve heard that it isn’t too far-fetched to expect to be able to buy a well tailored silk or wool suit for $30. I suppose these plans quiet our complaints about labor rights if we are just waiting eagerly (whether we realize it or not) to get our chance to jump on the exploit-the-Chinese bandwagon.
2. Chris Carr | March 12th, 2008 at 11:24 am
$30 for a suit? Even in China, not gonna happen. Or if it does, the thread count will be so thin it will fall off you after a one hour wearing. For something decent, figure at least $100 up. Look at the quality of the fabric you are buying.
3. Amanda Podesta | December 19th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
What are the business takeaways particularly pertaining to negotiating? Well, I guess it is always to some degree dependent on how much time you have (ZZZZ mentions it is their last day)… in America, Costco and WalMart spoon feed bargains to the everyday consumer, this is contrary to what I’ve come to expect in other countries (though I’ll admit Germany’s Aldis are pretty amazing). Getting a deal takes time, skill, and an ability to walk away.
Obviously these are just my opinions but if I were ZZZZ and XXXX’s advisor:
1. Do your homework before you get there
a. Know what kind of style/material you want
b. Know market value (check internet or a Men’s Warehouse) to establish some parameters.
c. Pick who’s going to negotiate for the pair of you with a set maximum price (the saleswoman did a classic “Divide and Conquer” move on ZZZZ and XXXX).
2. Look at Chinese people in suits (when on the bus, standing in lines, etc.) and pick one you like.
a. Introduce yourself
b. Get their name because then you can be a “friend of a friend” rather than “foreigner ripe for the fleecing” when you name-drop later on
c. Complement them on their style/taste
d. Ask where they got their suit and how much they paid.
3. If you can’t find a Chinese person who brought a nice suit locally, than walk the “Pearl District” and find the busiest store predominantly selling suits (not foolproof, but usually a good indicator).
4. Wear your smartest pants/blazer and split the seam or rip a button off (this way you can pretend to go into the store without even really having wanted a suit in the first place… lowering their expectations for your willingness to pay).
5. Go into the store, tell them that “Chinesepersonwearingsmartsuit” says they are the best tailors in China, and have them tailor/darn your blazer/pants.
6. Cal Poly students: Tell them you are part of a group of young foreign students that are going to be businessmen (THAT VISIT EVERY OTHER YEAR) and that traditionally they all look for and compare suits at this leg of the journey— complement the store’s suits as definitely the best in quality compared to what anyone else has found so far but that they are expensive.
7. Act conflicted. Ask the storeowner what the minimum they can go is (i.e. you’re not really in the market for a suit, so you’ll obviously want a deal: how much of a margin does the storeowner have to make for a sell). Haggle.
8. Point out the power of quantity (you should get an even greater discount for TWO suits)—focus on reiterating how much money total they could be receiving from this sell.
9. If you think there’s still some wiggle room, get multiple bids or act unsure about the figure “my friend got a very similar tailor-made suit for [lower $]” (ZZZZ and XXXX shouldn’t have left the second store till they knew what they would have quoted for a similar suit).
4. Dan N | January 2nd, 2011 at 2:08 pm
Well… First of all, Zambrano would tell us that any price between the buyer’s value (what we are willing to pay for the suit) and the seller’s value (the minimum price that they will take) is fair game. We’re all in the business of selling our customers goods and services as close to their buyer value as possible. The fact that lady from the E-mail started the bidding at $1,000 only means that she has a better understanding of our value then we do of hers. There’s no harm in securing prices at or near buyer value even when it is ten times your own value. That’s just good business.
Second, we also should take note of the extreme efficiency of this market. Virtually everyone who wants a suit and values it above the Chinese tailor’s bottom-line price will leave with what they came for. These negotiators - intimidating tactics and all - are extremely good for all of us because they have an uncanny ability of ensuring that wealth creating transactions take place.
The way I see it, the two biggest mistakes we can make are as follows:
1. Purchase a good without knowing how much you value it - Whether it’s a suit or a bowl of noodles, know how much you value it before you start negotiating. Don’t let someone convince you that you value something more then you do. I hate leaving the county fair realizing that the stuffed animal I just spent $10 winning is worth less than a buck to me. If it isn’t worth $10 to you then don’t let someone convince you that it is.
2. Allowing yourself to leave China without consummating those transactions that can take place profitably. If you value a suit at $1k then paying anything less then $1k makes you a WINNER! Who cares if your counterpart realizes a bigger surplus then you do on the transaction. Of course you want to play the negotiating game as well as you can. Get him or her all the way to $30 if you’ve got the skill. But my point is that both of you will lose if you decide to walk because their tactics “offend” you or you can’t stand the thought of leaving some surplus on the table.
Don’t be one of those people - and I guarantee there will be a handful - who says to the person beside them as they’re getting on the airplane, “I should have bought that purse. That was a really good price but I kept holding out for something better until it was too late.”
The winners in this trading game will be those who buy everything they want/need at good prices, not those who buy one thing they want/need at a great price but walk away from all of the other wealth creating transactions.
5. David Hart | January 9th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
Buying a suit in China seems to be a fun challenge! My main question would be how the quality of the suits are. Is it a case of “you get what you pay for?” Or can you really get a suit for just over $100 that would be the same quality/materials as a $500 suit in the US?
I would definitely be interested in finding a new suit in China, if the quality and price was right. I wonder if many of the suits we find in our stores here in America were made in China anyway, so why not cut out the middleman and find a bargain?
6. Katie Moeller | January 10th, 2011 at 2:57 pm
This article makes me think back to Dr. Whitaker’s first day of class. He wore suit that day and asked why it was important or what it symbolized. The answer he was looking for was that it demands authority (and respect). I often hear that if you want to get promoted, you have to dress well to demand the respect and get noticed. I know I sometimes choose comfort over being well-dressed. But, on the days I do dress up, I think it makes a difference. I also feel the same way for the perception I have of professors’ dress.
As for the students experience buying the suit, it sounds like it was a fabulous deal and everything worked out great. I was waiting for the next line to read that the person never showed up with a finished suit. I’m glad it didn’t turn out that way. Who knows if I will buy anything in China but I am learning that negotiation is an essential part of the transaction.
7. Chris Bruns | January 12th, 2011 at 6:04 pm
This blog reminded me of a GQ article I read last year about style and the importance of purchasing the correct suit and that no matter what, every suit needs to be altered, therefore “honor thy tailor.” I wholeheartedly agree with the entire sentiment, a fitted suit makes you look and feel better. And with a suit that is picked for your purpose/style you will look like a million bucks.
I would be very concerned with purchasing a suit in China, however I think it would be a fun experience for those willing to take the chance. I have only purchased a few suits, but those that I have purchased, I know that if I something had happened in the first few months I would’ve been able to speak with the store. If I blew out the knee or split the coat, I could return to the store and hopefully match color and cut. Additionally, since the next suit I buy will be from someplace like JoS. A. Banks, a place where I can be confident of the fabric and construction of the suit without breaking the bank. All of these reasons are why I’m willing to pay the extra money for the added security.
8. Cassie Bettencourt | January 21st, 2011 at 1:01 pm
First of all, I am a firm believer in the look good/play good mentality. Confidence does wonders for people. Often times in business and many other walks of life, looking good is half the battle. One of out professors stated that “90% of life is just showing up.” I would assume that showing up AND looking good would raise the stakes even higher.
In regards to business takeaways, this post showed me that it is important to stand your ground when negotiating. I agree with Amanda that stores like Walmart, Costco, etc. spoon feed consumers with deals so this negotiation thing is quite foreign to a lot of us. I can also see that a good healthy negotiation would definitely help build a relationship with a vendor or tailor. Since the price settled on is extremely efficient because both had to agree, both the customer and the supplier should be happy and thus, encourage repeat business (assuming the clothing meets expectations). From this post and the previous post, “Lesson on Negotiating,” it is clear to me that shopping in China is much more personal than it is in the West.
9. Jessica Shayler | January 29th, 2011 at 5:45 pm
Ladies, if you find an amazing piece of clothing, but the fit is not perfect, I can tailor it for you. Shirts, dresses, pants, suits, you name it I can do it. We can haggle over the price later…
As far as business take-aways, I’d like to back up one step from most of the other posts and ask if XXXX and ZZZZ were even intending on purchasing a suit in the first place?? “We were accosted by sales people trying to sell us suits.” This makes the experience sound almost like an ambush where XXXX and ZZZZ were suckered in to buying suits they may not have actually wanted/needed. Along with sharpening your negotiating skills and being satisfied with the buyer’s surplus you do attain, I would add know what you are in the market for. Just because you can get it for a good price does not mean you should buy it.
Note: Based on the intro I suspect XXXX and ZZZZ were indeed intending on buying suits, but I feel my point is still valid.
10. Brady Haug | January 31st, 2011 at 6:45 pm
This post reminded of my own travels in Milan, Italy. I traveled to a more remote part of the city, where there were few tourist and mostly locals. One of the markets I went to was in a crowded alley way and was composed of booths selling everything from eels to hats. It was an intriguing process to watch when the locals would haggle and yell at each other while trying to arrive at a price. I would listen in for a price on an item that I wanted and then try and push them to the same level when I bought it. I didn’t interpret their business dealings as being ruthless and cunning. They were simply trying to work with what they got. Particularly in a market or swap meet type venue, the customer should always take the initiative and bargain. These types of places are built around the idea of negotiating.
In relating this to business, negotiating is a key skill that you need to develop no matter where you are. In negotiating prices with suppliers for example, it is important to learn how to compromise and when to stop. You don’t want to offend someone by low balling them, but it is foolish to pay a huge premium. On a further note, looking professional in business is vital. You not only will be taken more seriously, but you instantly build your confidence. With a great suit you’ll feel confident to walk into any meeting.
11. Tim Easton | January 31st, 2011 at 7:39 pm
My high school soccer coach used the same quote, “If you look good, you play good”. He required us to have our jerseys tucked in, and made sure that everyone had the same warm up gear on (full, half, or no sweats) as we came out of the locker room. My school had a sponsorship from Adidas so we normally had the newest gear available. We felt confident, and in turn were confident as we played the game. I thought that my coach was crazy when I first joined the team, but I have become a believer of this quote.
As for buying a suit in China, you get what you pay for. It will be a great experience to negotiate with the vendors and get the best price possible. I am already considering buying a suit, so hopefully I do not end up like person XXXXX. It is going to happen to someone on the trip, but it always sucks to be that person that gets undercut by another buyer. I think spending a little over $100 on a decent suit will be a good purchase.
12. Robbin Forsyth | February 3rd, 2011 at 9:44 pm
The story reminds me of Nathan Road in Kowloon, Hong Kong. There is a section of the street that is lined with tailors that are left overs from British HK. Most of them are men of Indian decent that are aggressively, yet politely, (in the Queens english) hawking to every guy that passing by. The quality of the fabrics and finished suits are amazing.
Before you buy any custom made clothing have a clear idea of the styling, quality of fabric and construction you want.
General business take-aways from the article would be:
1- Do your best to understand the context and details of the situation before you start. Cultural issues, your intended outcome, competitive options and are critical to any effective negotiation.
2- Understand your threshold for price.
3- Be prepared to walk away.
4- Enjoy the experience.
13. Sarah Weinzapfel | February 7th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
The show “What Not to Wear” is a great example of feeling good about the way you look increasing the confidence one has for themselves. I am a strong believer in this theory. When I feel good about the way I look I am more confident and I “play” good.
I think before anyone gets their hopes up about a ridiculous low priced suit in China, they should do their homework and make sure they’re getting an actual deal. You can get something for cheap, but the quality is so poor that it won’t even worth it. We need to go there knowing their values of products not just our values. Research fabric and know what you really want before you just decide on the cheapest thing. You need go in there knowing your reservation points, having a good argument, and most importantly be willing to walk away.
14. Kristine Spencer | February 9th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
I definitely agree that looking good gives you confidence, and confidence usually leads to better performance. I think it is important to be put together and confident for a meeting, so taking time to “look good,” whatever someone’s definition of this is, is a good idea. Unfortunately people tend to judge the book by the cover, especially on the first meeting. The whole suit process seems kind of fun, from picking all the fabrics and styles of the suit. I can’t believe how low the vendors dropped the price from the original one thousand dollar price tag! Obviously it is good to bargain for a good price, but I would make sure to give the delivery man a good tip if the service was as good and quick as the example above.
In regards to women’s clothing, a few years ago a professor told my class he had a custom made prom dress (made exactly like the yellow dress that Kate Hudson wears in How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days) made for his daughter in Vietnam. I would assume that it would be possible to have something great made in China too. I would definitely try to follow all of the other students’ suggested tips, most importantly to know how much you are willing to pay for a particular product, be prepared to walk away, and have fun!
15. Jessie Wilkie | February 12th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
I was just at the gym the other day reading Fitness magazine (I know that sounds so lame!) The cover story was on Lindsey Vonn, an olympic gold medalist for skiing. In the magazine’s interview with her they asked her why she wears makeup when she races and she replied that if you look good, you feel better and you race better. It’s funny how the timing of me reading that article (http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/workout/real-plans/celebrity/lindsey-vonn-interview/) and doing this blog coincided so well!
As for getting things tailor made, when I was abroad I got a few salwar kameez’s, shirts (for my boyfriend at the time), and a sari tailor made. The place where I got the salwar’s made was loads of fun, we just chatted it up with the women working there. As for the shirts, it was at a market in downtown Pondi and I had gone in there a few times to negotiate pricing and I gave them another shirt to copy for the measurements (because it was a surprise!) Finally, the sari was most reminiscent of the suits because I got it in Delhi like the night before I was leaving. So they took my measurements and worked on the fitted shirt, but they had to deliver it to the hotel room later. I was afraid that I’d never see it! But they totally got it there and it fit perfect.
But I do think that the email that was posted in this blog is accurate. People aren’t ruthless though. They just want to get the best deal that they can (hence me going back to the tailor in Pondi like five times). It’s all about perception and exchange rates too. $1,000 USD versus $1,000 RMB is a big difference, but the USD goes much further than the RMB in China and foreigners are sure to have dollars in merchant eyes. Plus, a lot of times foreigners get taken to the cleaners. I’m not saying that you should negotiate so tough that you don’t get a deal or take away someone’s livelihood, but you should negotiate some. Also, I like how the writer just walked away and looked at the neighbor’s stuff and got a 50% concession from the lady right away haha. Often times walking away is a powerful tool. All-in-all, I thought this post was interesting, but it had two different ideas almost: looking good and buying things.
16. Jason Jay Sharma | February 13th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
I won’t lie; I’m not extremely excited about buying cheap suits in China. Particularly because (as Prof. Carr mentioned above) if you want an actually nice suit (I’m assuming both quality and look), you’re looking at $100 and up. Well, if you’re a real good shopper here in America, you can find a great deal on a quality “name brand” ready-made suit that will make that $100 suit look like an OK deal instead of an amazing deal. Visit the tailor and you’re good to go. I have my ways, but it takes a lot of effort and a lot of luck on timing.
Then again, a custom-made suit is a whole new ball game. I’m ready to buy a custom-made suit in China purely for the experience. From negotiating the price to having it delivered overnight–this sounds unbelievable, but it’s true!
As it’s already been mentioned here, there are a number of clear business-takeaways to be had from buying a custom-made suit. First, know what you’re buying. Be prepared to discuss what YOU actually want and not what they are trying to sell you. Second, survey the local pricing, as it’s the only way not to overpay. Listen to your gut instincts; if you think you can get it cheaper, you probably can. And third, don’t let the opportunity escape you. No one wants to be the only guy flying back home without a custom-made suit from China. Who knows when you’ll be back, so don’t squander your chance.
17. Will Moeller | February 17th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
I’m also thinking about Dr. Whitaker’s comment about demanding respect in suit. Naturally, everyone always wants to know, “who’s the suit.” I’d also echo the comment that it you look good you play well.
Personally, I think it’d be interesting to negotiate for a suit, shirt, etc. At the highest echelon of business, what you wear is important (I’ve never been there, but that’s my understanding. Thus, if I’m actually going to purchase a suit, I’m definitely doing my homework. What kind of suit can I get? From what material? Is it going to be mass produced, or is it personally done by a great tailor. Do I want a suit from China…debatable. Should I ever make it to the upper echelons of the business world via conventional, work-your-way-up means, I can’t say I’d be eager to wear something and brag about the great deal I got, especially if everyone around me is wearing Armani or something of the sort.
On the other hand, having a suit from China can also be a great statement. If you want to do business in China, dress accordingly. I’d be interested to know if Chinese businesspeople actually wear these suits as well. If they did, and I was working for a business division with ties to China, I’d drink the kool-aid, I’d buy a suit. I’m just not sure that buying a Chinese suit would really set me apart, not because of a lack of quality, but more so that the perception may be lower quality. Then again, Zambrano would identify me as a low-value consumer. If it’s not a deal, I’m not buying.
Finally, one thing I’m very impressed with the BRAND this tailor is making for himself. Clearly, if Americans are going to the same suit guy in a country of 1 billion, he must have an exceptional track record. Furthermore, if he’s keeping measurements, it shows he’s thinking of the lifetime consumer value. Right now, his suits may be seen as a deal. However, as China becomes the world superpower, it will be perceived more prestigiously. The tide rises, and this tailor’s stock rises along with it…major branding potential.
Anyway, if it’s me negotiating with suit guy, I’m planning to ask him what his costs are (assuming that isn’t a social blunder, Dr. Carr?)
18. Randy Camat | February 17th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
I agree that you feel more confident when you look good and therefore you “play” or perform better compared to wearing regular clothes. If you look good, you definitely feel more important and serious, which carries over to how you portray yourself. I’m currently in the negotiation class and Dr. Chandler once told us a similar story about her time in a Chinese market. One of the takeaways from the email excerpt is business in China is different from business in the US. Here in the US, we are given a non-negotiable price on almost every product/service, and if we bring that mentality over to China, be prepared to “donate” generously to the Chinese market. I also noticed that according to Roger Dawson’s Secrets of Power Negotiating, the most powerful negotiating technique was used – walking away from the deal. I would have done the same if the asking price a suit was $1000 US. Finally, the most surprising takeaway from the excerpt is to make sure the person you are in contact with is actually with the company/business you are dealing with. I was a little skeptical on the way money was being given out without any physical exchange of the product to a person they did not know (but YYYY did). Is this (paying a down payment) typical in China?
19. Chris Carr | February 18th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
@ Randy,
A down payment is common in some areas of business and shopping, as in suit buying, antiques, jewelry, etc. but can be dangerous and risky in any place and culture if/when a big ticket item is at stake and there is no proof of a store that will continue to exist or where you can hunt the sales guy/girl down the next week. For things like restaurants, foot massage places, etc. I have friends in China who made the mistake to buy a package to get a discount on pricing and their coupon of certificate could be used over the next year. Then the next week the place closed and disappeared (vanished) as part of China’s lightning speed change and evolution. Of course, this could/does happen here in the West as well. Just can be a lot harder to find the person who took your money in China with its 1.3 billion people! I have never been stiffed on a down payment for a suit. These guys generally know you know where to find them!
Prof. Carr
20. Chris Carr | February 18th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
@ Will,
The shop keepers at places like the Silk Market get asked about their costs all the time and they tend to roll with it and not get to bent out of shape. Can be dicey to ask this in more formal and traditional business dealings, though; but that is the case in the US as well. This can really vary.
Prof. Carr
21. Ashley Ogden | February 19th, 2011 at 6:17 pm
I definitely believe that when you look good, you have more confidence and therefore “play good”, etc. The main business takeaway I got from this article is that if you want something that is good quality and good price, you have to put in the time to find and bargain for it. In the video about getting custom-made suits in china, the man had to go to the tailor first, then shop around for the right fabric, then go back to tailor’s shop, then wait for his suit. It definitely makes it more convenient when they bring you the final suit to your hotel room, but I am still not sure if I will do this while in China. If I do, it would be helpful to get tips and recommendations from other people who have gotten suits in China before. I am sure that not every tailor does a good job, so getting a tip is important.
22. Ben Raymond | February 21st, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Shopping for anything in a foreign country can be risky—the language barrier and the vulnerability of a tourist make one susceptible to vendors looking to get as much money as possible for what seems like an exotic commodity to every traveler. Shopping for a suit, especially in a setting such as the one described, would be an even more intense experience because, as Katie noted, wearing a suit (and wearing it well) commands respect and exhibits confidence. A businessman needs a business suite because of the significant effect of first-impressions. Walking into a meeting with a suit tailored to make you look your best can be as valuable as a powerful connection or reputation, especially when we as students rarely have reputations or significant connections.
As far as business takeaways, the negotiating strategies are evident (and have been thoroughly discussed already) but what is more interesting is the relationship between the vendor and the shoppers. Initially, the woman selling the suits is described as aggressive and disrespectful, saying she “accosted” them. Culturally, we westerners are not as used to being “sold to”. Americans are consumers—we go to malls, outlets, and boutiques because we want to buy things. Retailers wait for us to go to them—only their advertising accosts us and only once we enter the store and show interest to they ask if we “need assistance”. In China the marketplaces are filled with merchants who actively pursue the consumers. If played right, the competitiveness of these merchants creates a balance of power that tips in the favor of the consumer. Eventually the consumer becomes partners with the saleswoman, entering into an agreement to not disclose the price discrepancy between their suits. This creates a relationship between buyer and seller with much greater depth than those usually found in the west. Haggling can be rewarding for either the consumer or the retailer, depending on the outcome. Even in the U.S. where we think that prices are set in stone, negotiating can alter the price tag. While it can be painful at times I have seen many consumers benefit from haggling over prices I had thought were non-negotiable. In the business world, almost everything is negotiable. It is an important skill to be able to successfully negotiate while at the same time protecting your relationship. Successful relationships have to be tailored even more carefully than a Chinese suit.
23. Anthony Kallioinen | February 25th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
First of all, I agree that how you present yourself not only affects others’ perception of you but also that it can reinforce confidence in oneself, much like what the title of this post is meant to communicate. Next, after the last blog (Lesson on Negotiation), I am certainly interested in obtaining a custom tailored (and inexpensive!) suit from China. I feel that the important take-aways from this post largely refer to the theme of confidence: when negotiating the purchase of a suit in China there must be a strong level of assertiveness on the part of the purchaser, especially if they are going to be ‘accosted by sales people trying to sell us suits.’
1) If feel that one must know for sure whether they want to buy a suit or not, and also have a knowledge of the value of that suit. Sometimes pressure (peer or otherwise) can lead to impulse buying. Know what type of material is desirable and also the market price for that material to avoid being pressured into choosing something on the spot or overpaying for a material without researching it beforehand.
2) Make sure to have a target and reservation price in mind and be able to walk away if those aren’t respected. I also thought it was really smart to put down only half of the payment, lest the suit never be delivered…
3) It is also interesting that the saleswoman dropped her price 20% lower than what she settled on with the author’s friend. This shows that he left money on that table; I wonder if he ever told him?
4) I am shocked at the turnaround time of the suits! We should remember this on our trip. Occasionally I will be pressured to secure an item, worried that I will miss my opportunity before the end of the trip. With a turnaround time this quick, I could theoretically buy a suit on the last day and have it delivered in the morning before we jump on the plane home.
24. j hurley | February 26th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
I never thought about buying a suit in China, but now I actually am. You cant beat a tailored suit for no more that $200. The really sad thing is, that if you were to buy an identical suit here in America, it would probably cost 5 to 10 times that amount…
Looks like I need to start looking at fabrics and designs so I have a decent idea of what I should be looking for while in China
25. Tyler Sereno | February 26th, 2011 at 6:00 pm
Negotiating skills will definitely play an important role in a successful suit purchase in China. I do not plan to attempt to buy a suit when we go on our trip. I know I would be the guy who gets hosed. The quote, “if you look good, you play good,” is something I feel is true. If you look good, you have more confidence and thus perform well. I want to be sure the quality is what they say it is when I am buying a suit. This is an issue for me when it comes to buying a suit in China. I am sure that they sell high-quality suits in China, but I personally prefer to buy my suits in an established retail store. I get my suits at the Men’s Warehouse. Better deals can probably be achieved buy purchasing a suit in China, but this is not my preference.
However, I may test my negotiating skills with the Chinese merchants with no real intention of actually buying a suit, just for the experience. It looks entertaining and it will be good to observe the cultural differnces in China.
26. Tara Millard | March 1st, 2011 at 11:15 am
I found this post extremely interesting. In order to get a custom made suit in America, which was delivered to your hotel room after it was personally hemmed for you would cost a ridiculous amount of money. So much, I am sure, that the majority of successful business men have never had a suit made from absolute scratch. The fact that this kind of service can be found at a street vendor and negotiated upon is amazing. The service alone that these young men received was astounding, let alone the fact that they received perfectly tailored suits that caught attention back in the states. I think all of the men on our trip should look for this vendor, even if you don’t need a new suit, the experience sounds like once in a lifetime.
Professor Carr, this post mentions that us ladies are on our own for finding this kind of service. With the kind of service described and the rapid turn-around rate, I can only assume that this lady possesses great skill. I don’t think it would be too far-fetched to assume that she might also be able to produce a fabulous women’s suit. I think it might be worth a shot.
As for the negotiating that occurred, it sounds similar to what I have experienced at many other street vendors internationally. We must all assume that being tourists, the street vendor will initially name a price far above their bottom line. While negotiating may seem disrespectful, it is merely a way of business. I personally love negotiating and often attempt to negotiate “non-negotiable” items in America, and succeed. My personal belief is that it never hurts to ask. I am very excited for this scene to play out on our trip.
27. Matt Streiter | March 6th, 2011 at 6:51 pm
I find the negotiation techniques very interesting in China. From what I have read and seen in videos it seems that they bargain to the point where they hate your guts and then once you decide on a price you then become friends again. I guess this is an example of how you have to be on your “A game” being that these people negotiate everyday all day and can spot your weaknesses if you show any. I feel that being an American negotiating with the Chinese may be a disadvantage since they know that negotiating is not a big part of an American’s everyday life. Furthermore, the price difference may be so dramatic in China from here that an American may be so excited about they are saving that they overlook the possibility to bargain even more at a lower price.
The story gives a first hand glimpse of the advantage China holds over many U.S. businesses. Material is a fraction of the price and the turn around time is much quicker. Buying a suit in China because of the extremely low costs would make me feel a little bit hypocritical being that we are complaining that outsourcing is ruining our economy. If I were to go buy a suit or something else in China because of the large discount would make me feel like I am contributing to the problem.
28. Kyle R. | March 8th, 2011 at 8:54 pm
This was an interesting bit of information. I never really thought about buying a custom made suit in China, until I saw the video on the last blog post. I was amazed at how cheap and customized it was. In this post, I found it interesting that the suit was fitted/delivered to the hotel. I’ve never heard of anything like this in the United States and definitely not for that price. With the enormous amount of businessmen heading to China, I bet it’s a great opportunity for Chinese fabric sellers and tailors. Once they get a sell, and if the customer feels it was a bargain, they will for sure have return customers and positive references in the future. I would definitely buy a suit in China if it could be purchased at an extremely low price when compared to a similar one in the United States. It would also be very important for me to know someone who had a positive experience with the tailor beforehand. With the short time we have in each city, I would want to make sure that it was done correctly and in time before departure. With all that said, I think custom suits can be a great opportunity for buyers and sellers in China and serves to be a safe alternative to the controversial selling of counterfeit goods.
29. JP Salazar | March 12th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
As soon as I read the title to this blog I immediately thought of some of my friends on my high school football team. They completely embodied this attitude in whatever they did. They were more concerned with how the tape on their shoes (“spat”) looked, how well their socks stayed up, and how tight their jersey was rolled than they were concerned with what their assignment was or how our team stacked up against the other. To them, looking good was just part of being prepared. When they looked good, they felt good, and as a result were able to perform well.
While looks are not everything, I can say that appearances definitely matter. One thing I learned waiting tables for years is that first impressions go a long way in determining how a relationship will develop. Part of this is your outward appearance. I have heard that people make their first impressions about someone within the first five seconds of meeting them, be it for a job interview, a date, or simply someone serving their food. Going back to what was stated in the prompt, Looking good leads to feeling confident, and a confident, driven person is very hard to deny.
Going back to appearances, it will be interesting to see how we are treated by the vendors in the Silk Market based on what we look like. We will probably be seen as doe-eyed, naïve meal tickets ready to be taken advantage of.
But to be a successful in business, we have to look the part. This trip will provide us a unique opportunity to try and use some of the skills we have learned in Negotiations to invest in the package that we will be presenting to the corporate world. In order to put our best foot forward, we have to feel comfortable with the image that we are presenting. A big part of this is looking good in some nice, tailored, suits purchased in China.
30. J Vail | March 14th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
I don’t feel like there is much to expand upon with this blog, other that being shrewd and frugal in China will get you a long way. I just finished watching the weather’s video, so it was good for me to see that you can go to another giant store and get a good suit without having to travel out of the city. It was very interesting to note that the tailor kept measurements, so you could continue to save the same without having to take the physical trip to China. I think looking good is important to being taken seriously, and no one is going to be checking the stitching of a suit to tell how much you paid. Convenient services like these show a symbiotic gain in China helping both tailors and foreigners looking to save.
31. Chris F. | March 16th, 2011 at 11:07 pm
I agree that when you are looking your best, you’ll exude confidence. This is important both in business and personal life. I am really interested in purchasing some suits in China (or Hong Kong) this summer and will no doubt have to negotiate over price. I agree with others that it is important to do your homework to get a feel for the local market prices on items. My father recommended a place that he purchased his suit at in Hong Kong and said the quality of work was really good. I also got the price he paid and will see if I can do any better this summer.
In terms of negotiating:
1)Know your personal value on the item.
2) Ask yourself if you really want the item.
3) Develop a target price and reservation point.
4)Know the quality of fabrics and the work that will go into the design of the suit (Do your homework).
5) Exercise your right as a buyer - the ability to walk away, if you think things can be done better. If they chase you, they could do better; if they don’t, then you have a better idea what the item costs.
32. Omar Pradhan | March 18th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Great story. I think looking good is half the battle and it’s always nice not to have to pay full price for something when you can. I don’t buy the last bit in the story about the airline flight attendant claiming to have seen the suit. Given what I know about flight attendants from friends in the airline business and also dating one in the past, they aren’t shy about sizing someone up and saying something just to play with them (in a flirtatious way) as they head out the plane (assuming outgoing, female flight attendants). Anyhow, just what ran through my mind as I read that last bit.
33. Chris Carr | March 20th, 2011 at 6:24 pm
@ Tara,
True, these tailors can make anything! Men or women’s apparel.
My own bias is that things like suits can/are harder to make and do well for women than men, but that is just my view and I am a sample size of one. Was also saying I only have experience with men’s clothes and their making, not ladies.
You can and should explore on your own, but as with anything in China, and regardless of gender, always proceed slowly and at your own peril!
Prof. Carr
34. Kevin K. | December 29th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
As someone who already has to get custom clothing — being 6-foot-6 and thin means good luck when looking for off the rack clothing. I have found a few good websites based in Thailand that I have bought some shirts from that fit great, but altering suits stateside is really expensive for the amount I need done. This post is great in giving me some tips when I go to China, because I am looking to get a suit, or two, if I find the right place and deal. I’ll be sure to re-read these posts before getting on the plane, that’s for sure. I can just imagine the look on some American store owner’s face when you try to haggle with them on a suit or anything really, pure confusion.
35. Vladimir | January 3rd, 2012 at 6:04 pm
I think looking good can have an effect on playing good in two ways. First, the person feels like a champ. Second, people who interact with the well-dressed person tend to treat him with more respect, thus reinforcing his feeling of higher status. But you should play good even if you don’t look good.
I’m not sure if I’ll buy a tailored suit in China. My weight’s been going up and down so the perfect fit today won’t necessarily be tomorrow. Also, I don’t like to be in a rush when buying a suit. I’ve only owned several suits in my life and I’m not good at judging quality. I’ll need to do some research, maybe even carry several samples of fabric in my pocket. That way I’ll be able to compare the Chinese fabric in front of me against the fabric of a suit that I know retails for $1000. I do plan on buying some ties.
It’s important to buy what you want, not because the seller convinces you to buy on the spot because the price is good or they tell you how good you’d look. I knew the opening price offers are inflated, but didn’t think they would be by that much. I wonder if the sales people have any idea of the price similar suits would sell for in the United States. Since sellers know people are looking for what they think are good deals, a 50 percent price drop is probably accepted often. To get a better deal, we need to focus on their costs when negotiating, not on US prices.
36. Daniel Fleek | January 20th, 2012 at 11:13 am
I agree that looking good makes you feel better and makes others respect you more. However, I have never owned a suit so I would need to do a lot of research before I went out and bought a suit at the Chinese market. I like Vladamir’s idea to bring samples of fabric so I know that the suit I am buying is actually good quality. I also think that trying on suits here to know my measurements would help me decide the right style and size. The mafia style suit that the guy in the video bought I thought looked good on him and that’s the kind of the style I think favors me. Also, the price he paid in total was incredibly cheap which is obviously because he knew where to go. I would bet that the suit he bought in China would cost about five times more in America. Also, the suits that are sold here were probably made in China anyways so why not cut out the middle man and buy it at China myself? I hope to find my perfect suit in China at the market and I want it done in about a day so hopefully I only have to pay $100 or just over this.
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