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	<title>Comments on: The Only Ground</title>
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	<description>The MBA Graduate Program at Cal Poly</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://calpolymbatrip.com/2008/china/the-only-ground/#comment-7219</link>
		<dc:creator>David Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calpolymbatrip.com/?p=1094#comment-7219</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of the Chinese government giving its citizens more freedoms to manage their land as they see fit. Your post reminded me of a statistic from "The Post American World," in which Zakaria notes that "by the eighteenth century, the average farm size in southern England was 150 acres; in the Yangtze delta, it was about 1 acre."

I believe that given these additional land rights and a little time, more and more Chinese agricultural workers will begin to move into and create cities and suburbs - pursuing work in manufacturing, engineering, services, and business; much like how the majority of Americans and Britons did during the Industrial Revolution. 

Subsistence farming is a relic from a time when people were struggling just to get enough food on the table for their families. With all the technology we've developed, and with all the time that we've had to practice using them, especially in the last 100 years, it seems totally reasonable to expect the same percentage of Chinese to be feeding everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of the Chinese government giving its citizens more freedoms to manage their land as they see fit. Your post reminded me of a statistic from &#8220;The Post American World,&#8221; in which Zakaria notes that &#8220;by the eighteenth century, the average farm size in southern England was 150 acres; in the Yangtze delta, it was about 1 acre.&#8221;</p>
<p>I believe that given these additional land rights and a little time, more and more Chinese agricultural workers will begin to move into and create cities and suburbs - pursuing work in manufacturing, engineering, services, and business; much like how the majority of Americans and Britons did during the Industrial Revolution. </p>
<p>Subsistence farming is a relic from a time when people were struggling just to get enough food on the table for their families. With all the technology we&#8217;ve developed, and with all the time that we&#8217;ve had to practice using them, especially in the last 100 years, it seems totally reasonable to expect the same percentage of Chinese to be feeding everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Carr</title>
		<link>http://calpolymbatrip.com/2008/china/the-only-ground/#comment-7200</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Carr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calpolymbatrip.com/?p=1094#comment-7200</guid>
		<description>Scotty,

Thanks for the comment.  Several questions to chew on:

Have you been to the Midwest and South where corn, wheat, soybean and cotton farms are thousands of acres in size, and farmers dump fertilizer &lt;em&gt;en masse&lt;/em&gt; through their irrigation systems on their crops, to encourage fast growth and harvest and maximize yields before winter hits?  Said fertilizer in turn seeps back into the groundwater causing water quality problems.  Fertilizer is also often overused (see related comment below).

The reason I know this is so is because I have seen it with my own eyes -- my family, in the Midwest, are farmers (mainly corn) and are part of this.  Thousands of other farm families there are also doing this.  Does not make them bad people, in fact they are wonderful quality people; but their approach, we have learned, is not the healthiest for the environment or one the ag industry often fesses up to (just as Wall Street often does not fess up to the skeletons in its closet).

I.e., I am not sure the California Central Valley, with its more modified, gentlemanly, gentrified and strategic approach, is used &lt;em&gt;en masse&lt;/em&gt; by family farmers and corporate farms in the Midwest, Texas, South with their cotton, soybeans, corn, wheat, and the like.   At least if it is, I have not seen much of it.  In fact, to this day when my bother takes me for a ride in his truck back 'home' when I visit, I continue to see the opposite -- massive tractors and combines and trucks that are anything but "green", large plots of land as far as the eye can see, huge amounts of (over)irrigation that cause unnecessary erosion, and the amount of fertilizer and insecticide used by folks back there on these mammoth farms .... oh my goodness, those two in particular are a &lt;em&gt;huge&lt;/em&gt; problem.  

This is one reason I am skeptical about giving China a blanket free pass that large farming will solve all of their problems and/or or that the majority of large farms in the US are automatically "environmentally friendly" albeit efficient ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scotty,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment.  Several questions to chew on:</p>
<p>Have you been to the Midwest and South where corn, wheat, soybean and cotton farms are thousands of acres in size, and farmers dump fertilizer <em>en masse</em> through their irrigation systems on their crops, to encourage fast growth and harvest and maximize yields before winter hits?  Said fertilizer in turn seeps back into the groundwater causing water quality problems.  Fertilizer is also often overused (see related comment below).</p>
<p>The reason I know this is so is because I have seen it with my own eyes &#8212; my family, in the Midwest, are farmers (mainly corn) and are part of this.  Thousands of other farm families there are also doing this.  Does not make them bad people, in fact they are wonderful quality people; but their approach, we have learned, is not the healthiest for the environment or one the ag industry often fesses up to (just as Wall Street often does not fess up to the skeletons in its closet).</p>
<p>I.e., I am not sure the California Central Valley, with its more modified, gentlemanly, gentrified and strategic approach, is used <em>en masse</em> by family farmers and corporate farms in the Midwest, Texas, South with their cotton, soybeans, corn, wheat, and the like.   At least if it is, I have not seen much of it.  In fact, to this day when my bother takes me for a ride in his truck back &#8216;home&#8217; when I visit, I continue to see the opposite &#8212; massive tractors and combines and trucks that are anything but &#8220;green&#8221;, large plots of land as far as the eye can see, huge amounts of (over)irrigation that cause unnecessary erosion, and the amount of fertilizer and insecticide used by folks back there on these mammoth farms &#8230;. oh my goodness, those two in particular are a <em>huge</em> problem.  </p>
<p>This is one reason I am skeptical about giving China a blanket free pass that large farming will solve all of their problems and/or or that the majority of large farms in the US are automatically &#8220;environmentally friendly&#8221; albeit efficient &#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Scotty Hayes</title>
		<link>http://calpolymbatrip.com/2008/china/the-only-ground/#comment-7199</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotty Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calpolymbatrip.com/?p=1094#comment-7199</guid>
		<description>China's agricultural output is the largest in the world. Agriculture is arguably the most important economic sector of China, employing over 300 million farmers. I think the new regulations discussed would be an extremely wise move by the Chinese government.

It is unfortunate that smaller farms will eventually be consolidated into larger operations. The big will continue to get bigger and the smaller farmers, unless a niche is found, will go out of business. (Exactly what is happening in the U.S.)However, the larger farms will continue to provide jobs in China's rural areas. These operations will also help allow China to sustain its growth and further compete on the world stage with it's agricultural products.   

I am going to have to respectfully disagree that larger farming operations in the U.S. use the land less efficiently and with greater detriment to the enviroment. Many of these companies reached their status partly by becoming more efficient than their competitors. These companies stay on top by constantly finding ways to become more efficient. They are continuously improving irrigation and farming methods. All Ag operations know that the land provides and it needs to be taken care of. Farmers are the largest group of conservationists I know of. I can also safely say that the biggest push in the U.S. Ag industry today is into organics.
    
Concurrently, the biggest promotion in Chinese agriculture is also a massive push into organic agriculture. This is great for many purposes. It is good for the land, good for your health, and organic foods usually demand price premiums. Good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China&#8217;s agricultural output is the largest in the world. Agriculture is arguably the most important economic sector of China, employing over 300 million farmers. I think the new regulations discussed would be an extremely wise move by the Chinese government.</p>
<p>It is unfortunate that smaller farms will eventually be consolidated into larger operations. The big will continue to get bigger and the smaller farmers, unless a niche is found, will go out of business. (Exactly what is happening in the U.S.)However, the larger farms will continue to provide jobs in China&#8217;s rural areas. These operations will also help allow China to sustain its growth and further compete on the world stage with it&#8217;s agricultural products.   </p>
<p>I am going to have to respectfully disagree that larger farming operations in the U.S. use the land less efficiently and with greater detriment to the enviroment. Many of these companies reached their status partly by becoming more efficient than their competitors. These companies stay on top by constantly finding ways to become more efficient. They are continuously improving irrigation and farming methods. All Ag operations know that the land provides and it needs to be taken care of. Farmers are the largest group of conservationists I know of. I can also safely say that the biggest push in the U.S. Ag industry today is into organics.</p>
<p>Concurrently, the biggest promotion in Chinese agriculture is also a massive push into organic agriculture. This is great for many purposes. It is good for the land, good for your health, and organic foods usually demand price premiums. Good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Carr</title>
		<link>http://calpolymbatrip.com/2008/china/the-only-ground/#comment-7079</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Carr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calpolymbatrip.com/?p=1094#comment-7079</guid>
		<description>Good post.  Lots to discuss.  I will try to be brief.

This idea by China is very smart and will in turn create many business opportunities.  

To maintain economic growth and hence social stability, China needs to create roughly &lt;em&gt;at least&lt;/em&gt; 15 plus million new jobs &lt;em&gt;each&lt;/em&gt; year.  Think of that number and challenge.  It is mind boggling.  This land law change, will help do that, by among other things, creating a "market" for the use of ag land in China.  This is a new, very big deal in China.

As I write this comment, I am in a village in China, located 1.5 hours outside of Beijing, with less than 800 people in it, and with a number of those 2 acre parcels per farmer of land surrounding the village.  Trust me, it ain't yet the California Central Valley in terms of production and efficiency.  

This change in land rights, will, in fact, lead to the creation of larger more efficient farms in China.  This consolidation, on its face, is a good thing for economic development and stability in China and hence, you and me and the USA.

Now the down side ....  

Larger consolidated, more efficient and more corporatized farms in the USA, at least, have often led to uses of the land that are not terribly environmentally friendly.  I.e., they often (not always) use boat loads of fertilizer, are often not efficient in their use of water, tilling the soil and soil erosion, etc.  

I.e., given China's current environmental mess, is this soon to arrive "more corporatized" ag production and larger, more consolidated farms a good thing for China and its environment?    

Maybe yes.  Maybe no.  Time will tell. Check back in 50 years and we will know the answer.  The one thing I can tell you for sure is that new business opportunities will be created in said environment, particularly for those with business school training, a passion for China and an interest in green development and sustainability.

See also this related post by David Wolf of the Silicon Hutong Blog, &lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="http://siliconhutong.typepad.com/silicon_hutong/2008/11/why-land-reform-is-a-tech-opportunity.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Why Land Reform is a Tech Opportunity&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;.  Said post is exactly how a savvy MBA student should be thinking about such societal challenges, and also ties in nicely with the tech commercialization class many of your took with Dr. Olsen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post.  Lots to discuss.  I will try to be brief.</p>
<p>This idea by China is very smart and will in turn create many business opportunities.  </p>
<p>To maintain economic growth and hence social stability, China needs to create roughly <em>at least</em> 15 plus million new jobs <em>each</em> year.  Think of that number and challenge.  It is mind boggling.  This land law change, will help do that, by among other things, creating a &#8220;market&#8221; for the use of ag land in China.  This is a new, very big deal in China.</p>
<p>As I write this comment, I am in a village in China, located 1.5 hours outside of Beijing, with less than 800 people in it, and with a number of those 2 acre parcels per farmer of land surrounding the village.  Trust me, it ain&#8217;t yet the California Central Valley in terms of production and efficiency.  </p>
<p>This change in land rights, will, in fact, lead to the creation of larger more efficient farms in China.  This consolidation, on its face, is a good thing for economic development and stability in China and hence, you and me and the USA.</p>
<p>Now the down side &#8230;.  </p>
<p>Larger consolidated, more efficient and more corporatized farms in the USA, at least, have often led to uses of the land that are not terribly environmentally friendly.  I.e., they often (not always) use boat loads of fertilizer, are often not efficient in their use of water, tilling the soil and soil erosion, etc.  </p>
<p>I.e., given China&#8217;s current environmental mess, is this soon to arrive &#8220;more corporatized&#8221; ag production and larger, more consolidated farms a good thing for China and its environment?    </p>
<p>Maybe yes.  Maybe no.  Time will tell. Check back in 50 years and we will know the answer.  The one thing I can tell you for sure is that new business opportunities will be created in said environment, particularly for those with business school training, a passion for China and an interest in green development and sustainability.</p>
<p>See also this related post by David Wolf of the Silicon Hutong Blog, <strong><a href="http://siliconhutong.typepad.com/silicon_hutong/2008/11/why-land-reform-is-a-tech-opportunity.html" rel="nofollow">Why Land Reform is a Tech Opportunity</a></strong>.  Said post is exactly how a savvy MBA student should be thinking about such societal challenges, and also ties in nicely with the tech commercialization class many of your took with Dr. Olsen.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Chamness</title>
		<link>http://calpolymbatrip.com/2008/china/the-only-ground/#comment-7050</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Chamness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calpolymbatrip.com/?p=1094#comment-7050</guid>
		<description>The article brings up the seizure of farmland by urban developers as a problem, and I wholeheartedly agree.  With such a large population, it is crucial that the government support the farmers and preserve the current farmland.  It seems China is smart in attempting to maintain its independence agriculturally.  

Unfortunately, California is not as forward thinking,  Throughout the state (and many other states I am sure) prime agricultural land is being cleared to build the unoriginal tract home communities.  While it is important to support the trade industry, food should ultimately have the final say.  As a non-renewable resource, fertile soil should be held in high regard and should not become the resting place of yet another concrete slab.  I think Joni Mitchell had it right when she sang, "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot".  While she might not be talking about soil specifically, she foresaw the same sort of problem.

We should be taking notes on the Chinese government's support of the farming industry, and their attempt at maintaing agricultural independence.  If we keep developing real estate at the same rate, we will soon be buying our agricultural products from China.  This kind of mistake is something that cannot be excused!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article brings up the seizure of farmland by urban developers as a problem, and I wholeheartedly agree.  With such a large population, it is crucial that the government support the farmers and preserve the current farmland.  It seems China is smart in attempting to maintain its independence agriculturally.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, California is not as forward thinking,  Throughout the state (and many other states I am sure) prime agricultural land is being cleared to build the unoriginal tract home communities.  While it is important to support the trade industry, food should ultimately have the final say.  As a non-renewable resource, fertile soil should be held in high regard and should not become the resting place of yet another concrete slab.  I think Joni Mitchell had it right when she sang, &#8220;they paved paradise and put up a parking lot&#8221;.  While she might not be talking about soil specifically, she foresaw the same sort of problem.</p>
<p>We should be taking notes on the Chinese government&#8217;s support of the farming industry, and their attempt at maintaing agricultural independence.  If we keep developing real estate at the same rate, we will soon be buying our agricultural products from China.  This kind of mistake is something that cannot be excused!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Larocco</title>
		<link>http://calpolymbatrip.com/2008/china/the-only-ground/#comment-7040</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Larocco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calpolymbatrip.com/?p=1094#comment-7040</guid>
		<description>This is a very interesting article that discusses multiple concepts within the Chinese economy.  Without addressing the ag industry, or lack thereof, China will have a very difficult time pulling millions of people out of poverty and feeding its growing population.  At the same time China has a significantly greater population which can make implementation of change far more difficult than in the U.S. or European countries.  The effect of change whether good or bad has an exponentially larger effect on the society as a whole compared to countries with lesser populations.  I agree with Oscar’s comments regarding a staged approach to the privatization of farm land.  The privatization of the land will give land owners the incentive to develop/implement technologies to increase efficiency and production.  It would benefit the Chinese government to monitor and regulate this development to avoid creating welfare issues and increased poverty, which would contradict one potential benefit from this initiative (raising a large percentage of the population out of poverty).  According to Fareed Zakaria in the book The Post-American World the current leadership in China has had a large scale subtle approach to change, which would lead me to believe that their efforts to develop the ag industry will be slow and incremental.  However, at times we have also seen the Chinese government has act swiftly and without respect for individual inconvenience, such as the building of the great three gorges dam on the Yangtze River.  In this example the Chinese government valued the betterment of the country’s power production over the inconvenience of thousands of individual citizens.  

One last point to bring up… One potential problem with this initiative is that the agricultural production development will outpace demand for agricultural goods.  One step the government could take to minimize this issue would obviously be to develop an increase demand.  With much of the U.S. grain products now going to the development of biofuels such as ethanol there is a greater global demand for grain products.  As China increases production they can also look to increase exports of ag products to fill this need.  China has also recognized the need to develop sustainable energy technologies.  A lot of research is being done on the use of biofuels and biomass within transportation and power generation, but implementation of these technologies is falling short in the U.S. and Europe because of high startup costs.  These costs are lower in developing countries such as China and India which have lower labor rates and are already investing in infrastructure to keep up with their economic development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very interesting article that discusses multiple concepts within the Chinese economy.  Without addressing the ag industry, or lack thereof, China will have a very difficult time pulling millions of people out of poverty and feeding its growing population.  At the same time China has a significantly greater population which can make implementation of change far more difficult than in the U.S. or European countries.  The effect of change whether good or bad has an exponentially larger effect on the society as a whole compared to countries with lesser populations.  I agree with Oscar’s comments regarding a staged approach to the privatization of farm land.  The privatization of the land will give land owners the incentive to develop/implement technologies to increase efficiency and production.  It would benefit the Chinese government to monitor and regulate this development to avoid creating welfare issues and increased poverty, which would contradict one potential benefit from this initiative (raising a large percentage of the population out of poverty).  According to Fareed Zakaria in the book The Post-American World the current leadership in China has had a large scale subtle approach to change, which would lead me to believe that their efforts to develop the ag industry will be slow and incremental.  However, at times we have also seen the Chinese government has act swiftly and without respect for individual inconvenience, such as the building of the great three gorges dam on the Yangtze River.  In this example the Chinese government valued the betterment of the country’s power production over the inconvenience of thousands of individual citizens.  </p>
<p>One last point to bring up… One potential problem with this initiative is that the agricultural production development will outpace demand for agricultural goods.  One step the government could take to minimize this issue would obviously be to develop an increase demand.  With much of the U.S. grain products now going to the development of biofuels such as ethanol there is a greater global demand for grain products.  As China increases production they can also look to increase exports of ag products to fill this need.  China has also recognized the need to develop sustainable energy technologies.  A lot of research is being done on the use of biofuels and biomass within transportation and power generation, but implementation of these technologies is falling short in the U.S. and Europe because of high startup costs.  These costs are lower in developing countries such as China and India which have lower labor rates and are already investing in infrastructure to keep up with their economic development.</p>
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